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Are "traitor" and "trader" distinguishable when spoken with any English accent? My English-speaking friends seem to pronounce them exactly the same way.

tchrist
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Fixee
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    They are indistinguishable in (all?) American varieties. This is the well-known American dental flap, as in 'writer/rider', 'later', 'water'. Note that 'overridden/overwritten', 'kitten/kiddin' (g-dropped 'kidding'), though easy to confuse, are articulated slightly differently. – Mitch May 22 '12 at 18:58
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    In my American dialect they sound subtly different. "traitor" has a slightly harder "t" sound. But they are very similar and I can easily see someone thinking they were the same. – Lynn May 22 '12 at 19:32
  • @Lynn What does “slight harder "t" sound” mean? Are you aspirating the initial t in one case but not the other, such as perhaps an aspirated traitor [ˈtʰɹeɪtɚ] versus an unaspirated trader [ˈtɹeɪɾɚ]? Not sure I’ve heard that sort of mutation, but anything is possible. Or do you just not know about the flap [ɾ] allophone of /t/? It’s the one in the middle of kitty in “Here kitty kitty kitty kitty!”, or in Spanish pero [peɾo] but not Spanish perro [pero]. – tchrist May 22 '12 at 20:49
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    In UK English, trader and traitor are very distinguishable – ODP May 22 '12 at 21:00
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    They do not seem indistinguishable to me. (An American...) My American dictionary shows the pronunciations as different. – GEdgar May 22 '12 at 21:54
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    In Southern it would be tray-tor and tray-der where o and e the vowels would be long! Very much different words. –  May 22 '12 at 22:03
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    @tchrist: For me, in "traitor" it's pronounced with distinct frication, something like [θ͇] ~ [ð͇]. In "trader" it's a simple voiced flap, [ɾ]. In careful speech, they're quite distinct, though the distinction is diminished in casual speech. – Mechanical snail May 23 '12 at 03:36
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    @tchrist - It's like: "trate-er" versus "tray-der". The latter does almost sorta sound like "tray-ter" but it still sounds distinctly different due to the emphasis. Sorry I don't know how to describe it better... I'm not up on all the prononciation symbols. – Lynn May 23 '12 at 05:16
  • @tchrist I live in western PA and have a similar dialect to Lynn's. The best I can do as an addition is to say that both the 'd' and 't' sounds are both soft and slightly closer to each other than normal. – Dan Is Fiddling By Firelight May 23 '12 at 13:11

7 Answers7

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The allophones of /t/ in English are [tʰ], [t], [ɾ], and [ʔ]. Which of those you get in any particular word and speaker depends on many, many factors.

Both trader and traitor alike are indeed pronounced [ˈtʰɹeɪɾɚ] by most North Americans, particularly in casual or quick speech.

Intervocalic /t/ almost always reduces to a single flap [ɾ] there. That’s why ladder and latter are homophonic, although kitten and kiddin’ are not. Indeed, kitten may become just [ˈkʰɪʔn̩] (sometimes written [ˈkʰɪʔən]) , often enough.

In contrast, intervocalic /t/ does not reduce to a flap in RP; it can sometimes do so in other British dialects, though. So RP would make traitor into [ˈtʰɹeɪtə] instead, with a linking [ɹ] at the end as needed for liaison only.

In Scots English you might find [ˈtɾeɪtʰɚ] (sometimes written [ˈtɾeɪtʰəɹ]), though, with now the initial ‹r› converted into a flap instead of the ‹t›. Just depends on the speaker.

See here for innumerably many other fascinating details and distinctions. In particular, see for example better and daughter. (Just don’t take too seriously the uptalking teenaged boy they got for the General American; that sort of high-tone rising is not commonly heard in older speakers. It has a very “valley girl” sound to it.)

tchrist
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  • Wow, I don't know much about phonetics and could not really follow that answer. I'll just say that I pronounce them differently and so does Merriam-Webster. trader vs. traitor – Old Pro May 22 '12 at 23:36
  • Perhaps you prefer the American Heritage Dictionary? trader vs. traitor. Or maybe you're a fan of Webster's New World College Dictionary: trader vs. traitor – Old Pro May 23 '12 at 00:47
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    @OldPro All of that proves utterly nothing, because people do not pronounce words in isolation the way they do in regular speech: isolated words are not regular speech. And the phonologic rules at work in regular speech guarantee that those two words are executed as homophones for most Americans. Your sources are worse that useless: they’re completely wrong. – tchrist May 23 '12 at 00:56
  • Why does the intervocalic /t/ in kitten not become a flap? – Buttle Butkus May 23 '12 at 03:24
  • +1 for the www.soundcomparisons.com link. What a great site! Thank you. – Callithumpian May 23 '12 at 03:38
  • I'm not aware of any such guarantees and, like I said, I pronounce the words differently. I grant they are very close, and some people pronounce them the same, but to my ear these YouTube clips sound different. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MpImIG-PtF0#t=7m23s and http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x0Bc6p1ZjGk#t=0m16s vs. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mbWhKM77r0I#t=3m32s and http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mbWhKM77r0I#t=5m13s – Old Pro May 23 '12 at 05:13
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    @Old Pro pronunciations from dictionaries represent citation form, which is but one end of the spectrum of speech carefulness, which ranges from citation form through careful speech to fluent and fast speech. T-flapping happens in American English for most speakers somewhere between citation form and careful speech. For some speakers (like me), trader and traitor are always homophones, even in citation form; for others, they will maintain a distinction through careful speech. But I bet you'd be hard-pressed to find a speaker of American English who never flaps their tees. – nohat May 23 '12 at 07:10
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    Another thank you to @tchrist for linking to sound comparisons! Fascinating. “Standard American” boy's pronunciation is indeed fun to listen to. – Anton Strogonoff May 23 '12 at 08:48
  • @nohat, I really don't know what it means to flap one's tees, and tchrist's answer doesn't explain it. I hope the YouTube clips help you hear the difference I hear. The one clip I found of a speaker not making a distinction may have been British and in any case pronounced trader with a harder t sound instead of the d. All of which is to say the OP's question of whether they are *distinguishable* in any accent is not as cut and dried as this answer makes it seem. – Old Pro May 23 '12 at 23:16
  • The article you cite doesn't mention traitor or trader. It mostly uses writer/rider as an example, and mostly to show how they remain distinguishable. The OP didn't ask about the IPA or even the "correct" pronunciation, just whether they were different. My main take away from the article was "At the phonetic level, the contrast between /t/ and /d/ may be maintained by these non-local cues, though as the cues are quite subtle, they may not be acquired/perceived by others." – Old Pro May 23 '12 at 23:57
  • Sorry, I didn't see traitor/trader as they only appear in a *hidden* list of word pairs and didn't show up even when I searched the page in the browser. Note, however, that the list is introduced as "For people with the merger these following utterances sound the same or *almost the same*". I'm not disagreeing with you about whether there's a flap in traitor or not, as I don't know enough to have an opinion. I (like 4 or 5 other people here) am trying to answer the OP's question and show that even in American English, they can often be distinguished, though not necessarily easily. – Old Pro May 24 '12 at 00:37
  • I disagree, tchrist, there's a clear difference between the two words, though I think it's mostly in the vowels, as John Lawler suggests, with traitor having a (literally) shorter a than trader. – Theodore Murdock May 24 '12 at 04:44
  • Well, the Homophonous pairs list also includes banter/banner, center/sinner, and winter/winner. I'd say those are far from homophonous for most Americans. Plus you have me, Lynn, GEdgar, Jarrod, Mechanical snail, Dan, John, and Peter testifying from personal experience that trader/traitor are different. I've also given you references and real samples from Bill Maher, Bill O'Reilly, and Steve Kroft, all of which show a difference. The only reference you've cited is a Wikipedia article that makes no claim as to how prevalent the "merger" is and even then does not say there is no difference. – Old Pro May 24 '12 at 05:43
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    @OldPro, it's easy to deceive yourself when listening for differences like this. Can you distinguish them in a blind comparison? – Ben Lee May 29 '12 at 19:21
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    I'm with tchrist here, depite @Old Pro quoting me in support of his position. When I speak, I do distinguish between trader and traitor by whether the vowel is a diphthong or not, but it is quite hard to hear the distinction, especially for people who aren't used to American English. And I believe I pronounce bidder and bitter exactly the same. – Peter Shor Jun 05 '12 at 17:45
  • @Peter, the OP asked if trader and traitor are distinguishable. You & I and several others say they personally can and do distinguish them. Tchrist asserts it is "well documented" the words are indistinguishable but provides only documentation that the intervocalic d and t reduce to a flap, completely ignoring (not even rebutting) all the evidence presented about other ways they sound different. Which I understand, because people believe what they believe. But why do you say that you distinguish the words in speech and can hear the difference, but agree they are indistinguishable? – Old Pro Jun 05 '12 at 19:27
  • @Old Pro: I said I pronounce them differently. I didn't say that I could always hear the difference. I believe I can hear the difference for some speakers, but certainly not for all speakers, of American English. – Peter Shor Jun 05 '12 at 20:39
  • @tchrist: I doubt that "For most Americans, traitor and trader are homophones when used in normal speech" is true. I'm sure most non english speaking Americans (say, Argentinean, Brazilian, Peruvian, etc.) will pronounce them very differently, unless trained not to. – Vinko Vrsalovic Sep 27 '12 at 14:30
  • @tchrist I know, it's just that the lack of a proper demonym for the UnitedStateans is a pet peeve of mine. – Vinko Vrsalovic Sep 27 '12 at 14:34
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    @tchrist I'm perfectly aware of how it is, and that's why it bothers me :-) Shows how self centered USA's culture is. Anyway, this is not the proper forum for this discussion (which could get lengthy.) Sorry for the noise. – Vinko Vrsalovic Sep 27 '12 at 14:40
  • @tchrist The problem is that it can be argued it causes harm, both in both USA people and the rest of the western world which is heavily influenced by the US. See http://users.dcc.uchile.cl/~rbaeza/inf/american.html I'll stop now, if you are interested to continue this we should move to chat. – Vinko Vrsalovic Sep 27 '12 at 14:53
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In American (but not British) English, /t/ and /d/ following a stressed vowel and preceding an unstressed one are normally neutralized to a flap [ɾ] sound.

There are a lot of pairs that are neutralized this way; the standard example is writer ~ rider. However, that doesn't leave the pair indistinguishable, since English native speakers often lengthen stressed vowels before voiced consonants, and that vowel length is retained even after neutralization, so Americans pronounce them as ['rəiɾər] and ['ra:iɾər], respectively. (In that case, /ai/ is reduced to [əi] before voiceless consonants anyway, like wide and white, but that's only true of /ai/ -- and in Canada, /aw/)

In the case of traitor and trader, that would be ['tʰreɾər] and ['tʰre:ɾər], respectively, in the U.S. and Canada. English doesn't have phonemic vowel length, but some vowels are held longer than others anyway; listen for them and you'll hear them.

John Lawler
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    There are significant variations among American dialects. For me, it'd be ['tʰreɾər] and ['tʰreɪɾər], with the vowel in trader being both longer and a diphthong. – Peter Shor May 22 '12 at 20:12
  • Isn’t this just Canadian rising you’re talking about here, where rider and writer become respectively [ˈɹaɪɾɚ] and [ˈɹʌɪɾɚ]? It’s pretty common throughout North America with /aɪ/, not specifically Canadian. Another pair is tied and tight respectively becoming [tʰaɪd] and [tʰʌɪt] (or [tʰʌɪtʰ] or [tʰʌɪʔ]), or is ride [ɹaɪd] and right [ɹʌɪt]. The unvoiced consonant triggers regressive assimilation and raises the earlier vowel: the [ʌɪ] diphthong is “higher” than the [aɪ] one. – tchrist May 22 '12 at 20:40
  • @PeterShor I hadn’t thought about whether one loses the diphthong in traitor [ˈtʰɹeɾɚ] versus trader [ˈtʰɹeɪɾɚ]. These seems like the very same vowel shortening and/or raising thing that represents the unvoiced /t/ regressing backwards to mutate the vowel that we see in Canadian raising. It seems to me the RP pronunciation of ate as [et] or [ɛt] instead of as [eɪt] must be the same phenomenon at work; what do you think? – tchrist May 22 '12 at 20:45
  • Canadian Raising (not Rising) is an extension to the /au/ diphthong. Centralization of /ai/ is pretty standard in all of N. Am, but Canadians also centralize /au/ in the same environment, e.g: house (n) [həws], (v) [hawz]. – John Lawler May 22 '12 at 20:58
  • @JohnLawler Yes right, sorry: I tried to fix my rising typo, but it was too late to edit. I’m trying to figure out whether I myself raise coat but not code; I think I may, actually, so it’s not just Canada since I’m from south of the border in Wisconsin. The regressive raising thing might seem to explain RP [ɛt] vs US [eɪt] in ate, but I’ve never heard that one explained in that fashion (nor at all, really). – tchrist May 22 '12 at 21:00
  • Centralization before vl consonants applies only to phonemic diphthongs: /ai/ and /au/. Tense vowels are diphthongized non-phonemically and aren't part of the phenomenon. – John Lawler May 22 '12 at 21:10
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    Ah, so as in lout versus loud then? I do raise the first one (somewhat) but not the second, and not in quite the same way as they seem to in Ottawa, where I used to work from time to time. – tchrist May 22 '12 at 21:35
  • @JohnLawler, you don't have diphthongs in your transcription because you don't pronounce them in your dialect or because this is supposed to be broad transcription? In the latter case, you shouldn't have aspiration over t's then or vowel length. Or am I missing something? – Alex B. May 22 '12 at 22:18
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    (1) tense vowel phonemes /e i u o/ inside slashes, are predictably diphthongized; English has no non-diphthongized tense vowels, so writing the diphthongs isn't necessary. (2) Aspiration is a phonetic feature [inside square brackets] and I wanted to emphasize the difference between phonemic diphthongs /ai au/ and phonetic diphthongs [ey iy uw ow], so I included the aspiration, which usually needs to be emphasized anyway when discussing phonology to non-native speakers (and most of us here are non-native speakers). That's all. – John Lawler May 22 '12 at 23:44
  • Never heard of an [ij] diphthong, and in fact I don’t even know whether it’s possible. For example, machine is just [məˈʃiːn]. I can’t see anyone writing that with a diphthong. – tchrist May 23 '12 at 01:03
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    One can use length to indicate the offglide, but it's there, one of the many redundant features that distinguish the two classes of front and back vowels in English. – John Lawler May 23 '12 at 01:47
  • @tchrist, "The vowel [i:] is often noticeably diphthongized, especially in final positions" (Cruttenden 2008: 106). The glide is almost like [ɪ] - hence "ij" in NA notation. – Alex B. May 23 '12 at 03:14
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    @John Lawler my intuition is that flapped /t/ and /d/ are completely neutralized phonologically for me, and I'd be surprised if there were a statistically significant difference in anticipatory vowel lengthening before /d/. I wouldn't be completely surprised, though. – nohat May 23 '12 at 07:17
  • I've caught myself and others doing it, but since I'm only a syntactician and semanticist I'm not familiar with the sociophonetic literature. But I know it's fairly common. – John Lawler May 23 '12 at 13:26
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There are some American accents where the middle 't' is pronounced so softly it is difficult to distinguish it from a 'd' sound. However, in received pronunciation British English, the two words sound significantly different.

Christi
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  • "Completely"? You mean just the 't/d' right? Or all the vowels and consonants? – Mitch May 22 '12 at 19:00
  • Yes, "completely" was a poor choice of word. I will amend. – Christi May 22 '12 at 19:17
  • What does “soft” mean in IPA terms? Do you mean it somehow becomes an approximant? Or a glottal stop? I don’t know what “hard” or “soft” mean. – tchrist May 22 '12 at 21:28
  • I'm sorry but I'm handicapped by not really knowing IPA, so I can't describe it any better than that. – Christi May 22 '12 at 21:53
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Most American speakers I have heard pronounce them differently unless speaking very quickly. One would seldom mistake "trader" for "traitor", but it could more likely happen the other way around.

TecBrat
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    WOW! Three down votes, really? – TecBrat May 23 '12 at 02:32
  • It seems there has to be a whipping boy :p – hoang May 23 '12 at 13:03
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    I'm not as worried about the downvotes anymore. The reputation system is very strongly weighted in favor of rewards vs. penalties. :-) – TecBrat May 24 '12 at 08:57
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    I didn't downvote, but I'm tempted. I suspect TecBrat is either fooling himself, or in possesion of a dialect of AmE that he believes is more prevalent than it is. My native is AmE Midland (the American TV dialect), and while they both sound very different in my head, you'd be hard-pressed to discern that difference audibly without context. – T.E.D. Jun 05 '12 at 14:37
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No.

Trait-or, trade-r.

At least that's how I would pronounce them in Australia.

GONeale
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Are "traitor" and "trader" distinguishable when spoken with any English accent? My English-speaking friends seem to pronounce them exactly the same way.

They are normally indistinguishable when pronounced in American accents. This happens when the letter t is inside a word. This is not the case in the various British accents.

This is something that was covered by another discussion. You can see the explanations in my answers here: Is there a difference between "bitter" and "better" in pronunciation?

Community
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Tristan
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If you read the official pronunciation in a dictionary it is pronounced as a t, but some regional dialects will make it d. If you are in Chicago, you'll hear t's that are in the middle of a word as d's. So in Chicago "traitor" sound like "trader" and "fatter" sounds like "fadder." If you are in Great Britain, you'll here it as a t.

Joe
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    It’s not regional pronunciation. It happens everywhere in America. As I and others here have explained, phonemic /t/ can be phonetically realized as any of the allophones [tʰ], [t], [ɾ], and [ʔ] — and this one is [ɾ] not [t]. It really is as simple as that. – tchrist May 23 '12 at 00:58
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    @tchrist America is a region. And are you really going to say everywhere? – Random832 May 23 '12 at 12:23
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    @Random832 General American is not considered a “regional” dialect by any source that I use, although I actually used America there to mean North America, as it occurs in Canada as well. And yes, flapping is tantamount to universal in North America. – tchrist May 23 '12 at 12:25
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    Right, but "everywhere in America" covers a lot that's not GA. And on a global scale, it is regional. – Random832 May 23 '12 at 12:28