Is "ought to" still used in modern English? If yes, in what contexts is it used, and is it used more in formal or informal cases?
- 59,185
- 35,654
-
3While the usage of ought to has been declining steadily in the last 300 years, it is still incredibly common. (The linked Ngram shows that it is roughly 1/3 as frequent as the word table today, and table is not at all an obscure word.) The question is when should you use it, and when to use should or must. – Peter Shor Jul 25 '12 at 20:30
-
@Peter Shor - Sorry, I do not understand why you aren't satisfied by Ms Peters consideration: "it is otherwise replaced by modals such as should and must in non-fiction writing of all kinds, everywhere in the world." – Jul 25 '12 at 20:37
-
7Basically, if a word is used 1/3 as often as table, it is an incredibly common word. In my experience, it is still very common in positive statements, although it is not used as anywhere near as much in the negative. – Peter Shor Jul 25 '12 at 20:45
-
2@Carlo_R I suspect you many have misunderstood what Ms Peters is saying. For a start, she specifically mentions non-fiction writing; implying that her assertion doesn't apply to fiction, or to spoken English. Also, the sentence that you quoted also says "ought still works affirmatively as a marginal modal". Yes, it's still used. It's still very common. I use it regularly (probably every day), both in spoken and written English. Peter's Ngram just confirms that I am not an exceptional case in this regard. – Jul 26 '12 at 08:59
-
3@Mehper: I bet you had no idea this question was going to open such a can of worms! I think it's one of those pathological cases (in the mathematical sense of one whose properties are considered atypically bad, in that the word is (relatively) common, so competent speakers tend to have pretty clear ideas of acceptable usage in their own idiolect. But there's considerable variation relating to chronological period, geography, spoken/written register, etc. (as you oughta have realised by now! :) – FumbleFingers Jul 26 '12 at 12:32
-
1@JSBձոգչ: Not that I really have a position here, but might you be able to explain to me (in chat?) why you don't think "usage" is a valid tag for this Q? – FumbleFingers Jul 26 '12 at 12:36
-
@FumbleFingers: I'm glad to open this can of worms :) The answers and comments are really helpful. – Mehper C. Palavuzlar Aug 08 '12 at 08:21
-
1@Mehper C. Palavuzlar: As I implied, I particularly like this question because it's one where all native speakers can have a view (we're all perfectly familiar with the word ought, and we all know our own usage). So it really highlights the difference between recommended and [widely] accepted usages. Potentially confusing for non-native speakers looking to find how they should use the word, but sometimes that's just the nature of natural language. – FumbleFingers Aug 08 '12 at 12:31
5 Answers
Is "ought to" still used in modern English?
Yes, it is. Quite a bit, in fact.
If yes, in what contexts is it used, and is it used more in formal or informal cases?
That’s an interesting question, because it turns out that ought can sometimes be quite formal, but it can sometimes be quite informal. It just depends how it’s used. Here are two examples from opposite ends of that register spectrum:
- Ought we be placing our filthy feet on the davenport, young man? [VERY FORMAL, REPRIMANDING]
- Ya think that’s somethin’, do ya? Ya oughta see my ol’ lady! [VERY INFORMAL]
The simple answer to your question is that ought gets used all the time, in all registers and speakers. It’s a perfectly normal word for expressing either obligation or probability. It is one of the lighter in strength of several nuanced alternatives in this list:
- You ought to call home.
- You should call home.
- You have to call home.
- You need to call home.
- You must call home.
Whether the first or the second of those is the stronger in obligation depends on the speaker, but I have ordered them according to my own somewhat nebulous perception of increasing strength.
Like its close cousin should, modal ought also has a second sense having nothing to do with obligation, but only of possibility / probability / likelihood:
- I ought to have enough by then.
- I should have enough by then.
- I may have enough by then.
- I might have enough by then.
Those four are all about likelihood or probability, not obligation. The speaker believes it varyingly possible, or even probable, that they will have enough by then.
“Ought to” is so commonly used that you’ll sometimes see it written as “outta”, “oughta”, or “oughtta” by writers attempting to write in dialect, such as “Hey Mack, ya really outta getcherself a new broad!”
Ought works mostly like a modal auxiliary, no more admitting words like do, had, or will to the verb phrase than one involving should would. That’s because, per the OED, “as an auxiliary of predication it has become indefinite as to time.” These are therefore all ungrammatical in standard English:
- *I’ll not ought to go by then.
- *We won’t ought to go.
- *We hadn’t ought to’ve gone.
- *We didn’t ought to go.
Although some of those do occur in some speakers, they are considered highly non-standard, and would convey a very strong rustic or unlettered tone to any character in whose mouth you put such words. Indeed, the OED even goes so far as to label “did ought” as dialectic, colloquial, and vulgar, which is about as harsh a condemnation as it ever makes. Here’s one of its citations for this sort of “vulgarity” (in the classical sense :):
- 1942 M. Innes Daffodil Affair i. 17 ― And I hope that none here will say I did anything I didn’t ought. For I only done my duty.
Obviously that speaker has other markers of education or station, such as the non-standard “I done”, reinforcing the picture we are to have of them.
In contrast, speakers who naturally use double modals (like “might should”) will do the same with ought, forming such constructs as might ought to. Since these are not ungrammatical in those speakers, constructions such as this one become possible: “You might ought to do something about that tire.” In contrast to the previous example, this one sounds merely folksy to my hear, not ungrammatical.
In my own particular flavor of English, whenever ought is used in the negative, the to particle in front of the following infinitive is always suppressed, making it in form just like the modal shouldn’t:
- You oughtn’t be so picky.
- You ought not enunciate so clearly: you’re spitting.
- You ought never put your unhatched chickens to the count.
In the same way, for me the to is also suppressed when used in question inversion, although question inversion with ought sounds rather formal, perhaps even stuffy:
- Ought we go now?
I can’t imagine it gets used much in first-person singular, perhaps because there are plenty of alternatives that come more readily to the tongue:
- Ought I call you a cab?
- Should I call you a cab?
- Shall I call you a cab?
- May I call you a cab?
In this regard of suppressing a following to under negation or inversion, modal ought behaves like modal need, which is also somewhat more formal-sounding:
- You needn’t go so far as that. [NEGATION]
- Need we really be so formal? [INVERSION]
From a purely syntactic viewpoint, you can swap in ought for need in both examples above without changing anything else. Regarding to-suppression, the Wiktionary entry for ought has this in its usage notes:
Ought is an auxiliary verb; it takes a following verb as its complement. This verb may appear either as a full infinitive (such as “to go”) or a bare infinitive (such as simple “go”), depending on region and speaker; the same range of meanings is possible in either case. Additionally, it’s possible for ought not to take any complement, in which case a verb complement is implied, as in, “You really ought to [do so].”
I do not know the geographic distribution of the to-suppression portions of Anglophonia, but it has been suggested that there are British speakers who require the to and American speakers who forbid it. If so, it may be that this is another one of those many forms of speech prevalent during colonization that wound up better preserved abroad than in Britain itself. Certainly there are plenty of citations of to-suppression in English literature from the 16th through the 19th centuries; here are a few from the OED:
- 1589 Pasquil’s Ret. B, ― Her Maiestie layeth such a logge vppon their consciences, as they ought not beare.
- 1601 Shaks. Jul. C. I. i. 3 ― You ought not walke Vpon a labouring day, without the signe Of your Profession.
- 1648 Milton Tenure Kings (1650) 14 ― On the autority of Law the autority of a Prince depends and to the Laws ought submitt.
- 1815 Zeluca III. 318 ― Do not get habituated to a word you ought never use.
- 1868 Browning Agamemnon 796 ― How ought I address thee, how ought I revere thee?
To my ear, the Milton and the Browning sound archaic, having to-suppression in the positive, but those in the negative sound normal (as least insofar as the ought use is concerned). I don’t know why suppressing the to particle sounds slightly archaic when in the positive, but not at all so in the negative or under inversion, but it does.
The only completely obsolete use of ought that I am aware of is using it as the simple past tense of to owe. This is a non-modal use and so is subject to inflexions. The OED lists examples of oughteth, oughted, oughting, and says that all such use is either obsolete or dialectic, allowing for an apparently non-obsolete Scots use such as:
- 1822 Scott Nigel v, ― We aught him the siller, and will pay him wi’ our convenience.
Or is that now also obsolete even in Scotland? I don’t know whether there are any Scots who might still say such a thing; perhaps so. But the rest of us would say “We owed him” there.
- 134,759
-
1Sam Gamgee, The Lord of the Rings: "You didn't ought to have done that!" (Quoted from memory.) – TRiG Aug 21 '12 at 22:35
-
It is always interesting to read what individual native speakers of different English dialects think of this or that word or construction. However, even an educated native speaker with some background in linguistics can share his or her opinion that does not necessarily coincide with observable general trends/rules. To answer a question like this, one needs to do some research.
Incidentally, the Longman Grammar of Spoken and Written English is the bible for anyone who is seriously interested in descriptive English grammar. Obviously, it takes a bit longer to produce such a work than googling.
Now about the marginal modal "ought to". Unsurprisingly, it is pretty rare (breaking news!). It is not among the nine most frequent modal verbs (will, would, can, could, may, should, must, might, and shall). The verb "ought to" is (generally) so rare compared with other modal verbs that the authors of LGSWE decided to exclude it from most figures and even discussion in their grammar. That's why Geoffrey Leech said that
"One should not waste hours of valuable classroom time teaching shall and ought to!" (Leech 2003: 236)
or
"Already in Present-day English we seem to be reaching a stage where some modals (shall, ought to, need) are reaching the end of their useful life" (Leech 2003: 236).
Here are two illustrative tables from Leech 2003:
Written English

Spoken English

There is nothing surprising in these tables (i.e. that "ought" has been on the decline). Linguists have known this for at least fifty years. The general consensus among linguists is that "ought" is falling out of use (Cappelle and Desutter 2010, Collins 2009, Myhill 1997, among many, many others). In fact, I don't know of any linguist who would argue the opposite.
Martin Harris (in Harris 1986) shares a funny story about how his two teenage sons, "speakers of educated standard British English", "informed" him that ought is "an old word", used by people like him, meaning should (p. 347). That was in England in the 1980s.
In any natural language, there is a lot of variation. Some native speakers use "should" instead of "ought" in questions and negative sentences, some say things like "did we ought to leave so soon". Some native speakers say "oughtn't to open"; some, esp. in the US, say "oughtn't open", and some prefer "didn't ought to open". Some people think that "ought" should be used in cases when your judgment is based on external rules, like social conventions or institutions, as opposed to "should" used for the moral judgment stemming from the speaker's/writer's own personal criteria (Bouscaren et al. 1992). Some don't.
DeCapua 2008 argues that "use and choice of modals also vary somewhat regionally across the United States. In some areas, for instance, ought to occurs more frequently than in others [emphasis mine - Alex B.]" (p. 233).
However, we can observe general, supra-dialectal trends:
- ought is more common in speech than in writing - 56% (spoken), 44% (written) in Cappelle and Desutter 2010. Collins 2009 reports the speech-writing ratios 3:1 for BrE and 4:1 for AmE;
- should is much more common that ought, the ratio is 9:1;
- deontic ought is much more common that epistemic ought;
- ought is more common in declarative sentences (in spoken English) etc.
The authors of the MW Dictionary of English Usage, "the finest work of scholarship on English grammar and usage I have ever seen" (Geoffrey Pullum), mention that oughtn't is regionally limited in the US, "being found most commonly in Midland and Southern areas of the Atlantic Seaboard and in parts of the Northern Midland area." They also argue, based on thorough research, that oughtn't has "somewhat limited use in writing, mostly in reported speech or light prose."
Incidentally, Pam Peter's Guide is well-written and based on current linguistic research. David Crystal calls it "a reliable style guide."
Now, this is what Pam Peters actually wrote in the Cambridge Guide:
So while ought still works affirmatively as a marginal modal expressing obligation [emphasis mine - Alex B.], it’s otherwise replaced by modals such as should and must in nonfiction writing of all kinds, everywhere in the world.
See, for example, this video (BBC Radio 4 and The Open University), where the speaker uses should and ought interchangeably.
- 4,210
-
1
-
2@Mitch, Yes, my intuition tells me that "oughtta" is rather common but I don't see how we could check this. COCA has 34 occurrences of "oughtta" and 1 of "ougtha", nothing for "otta". BASE doesn't help us much, either. – Alex B. Jul 26 '12 at 01:32
-
2The difficulty with these corpuses is that they record -written- usually standard speech very well, but not spoken/informal/common but non-standard speech. – Mitch Jul 26 '12 at 01:51
-
The MW Dictionary of English Usage has some very good info on ought right here, which while you have doubtless yourself read, most others have not. As for its regional analysis, I’m from the Inland North, and find oughtn’t wholly unremarkable. – tchrist Jul 26 '12 at 17:11
-
@tchrist, I was glad to see that you didn't say something like "you oughta have read this" :) – Alex B. Jul 26 '12 at 18:53
-
@tchrist, Joking aside, I like your answer, esp. the part "ya really outta getcherself a new broad!" However, I would have to disagree with you when you say that "ought gets used all the time, in all registers and speakers." A bit too sweeping, don't you think? – Alex B. Jul 26 '12 at 19:27
-
1Despite your scholarship, Alex, the problem remains that your ultimate paragraph is stating an untruth: there is no shortage of examples of ought being used in nonfiction everywhere, exactly the contrary of what is stated. I cannot approve of misleading people this way. – tchrist Jul 29 '12 at 18:48
-
I don't believe that Pam Peters meant that ought is dying out of the language. She meant that it was being used as a semi-modal verb (i.e., marginal modal) rather than a modal, and that its use was becoming restricted to obligation (distinguishing it semantically from must and should). – Peter Shor Jul 29 '12 at 19:19
-
@tchrist, I'm willing to question Peter's claim - show me some evidence, e.g. how "ought" and "should" have been used in different registers and dialects. Your or my or someone else's intuition doesn't count. Corpus findings are preferred. – Alex B. Jul 29 '12 at 19:58
-
It’s easy to find instances of ought in technical writing. Surely you have manuals you can search electronically. I suppose I could tally up how often ought occurs in the PubMed corpus, or pull out sentence examples from there. It isn’t a question of whether it prescriptively “should” occur there; it’s one of whether it descriptively “does”, of which I cannot believe you have any doubt. Existence proofs are trivial; for example, “The true "rootdn" of the target server ought not be used; an arbitrary...” to name just one. – tchrist Jul 29 '12 at 20:34
-
@tchrist, trivial? Not so sure. I searched the text of "Programming Perl: Unmatched power for text processing and scripting" (2012), and here's what I got: "ought" 16 occurrences, "should" 179 occurrences, "must" 184 occurrences etc. See what I mean? It's not really about non-occurrence of "ought"; it's about the rarity of "ought", compared to other modal verbs. – Alex B. Jul 29 '12 at 21:00
-
@AlexB. Odd, I get 17 occurrences. But in any event, your last paragraph seems to say that ought either does not occur, or else should not occur, in non-fiction writing. I believe neither of those; what about you? – tchrist Jul 29 '12 at 21:12
-
@tchrist, idk, that's what Amazon says. My favorite passage: "And what are these 'easy jobs' that ought to be easy? [...] It should be easy to run external programs .... It should be easy to send those same tidbits .... It should be easy to develop .... And, of course, it should be easy to compile .... (p. xxiii). – Alex B. Jul 29 '12 at 21:24
-
@tchrist, the way I understand that paragraph from Peter's Cambridge Guide (not mine) is that 'ought' is being replaced/outnumbered by 'should' in those contexts. I don't know Dr. Peters myself but I don't think she'd ever say that something should not occur somewhere in English. – Alex B. Jul 29 '12 at 21:28
-
3The longer this debate continues, the more puzzled I become. Three things seem evident: (1) in general, should is more common than ought; (2) the usage of ought has been in a slow but steady decline; (3) neither of the first two points mean that ought is "rare," "odd," "improper," "extinct," "obsolete," or "abnormal" – it's still a word one will read or hear on occasion. There are now over five dozen comments here, and most all of them seem to support those three non-contradictory statements in one way or another. Just my opinion, but perhaps the debate ought to come to a close. – J.R. Jul 30 '12 at 03:43
-
@J.R., I agree with (1), (2), and in part with (3). What hasn't been addressed here - and this is something I'm going to investigate in my research (not here)- is how common/rare "ought" is in the speech of British teenagers. COLT 1000 most frequent words: shouldn't (55), may (101), must (199), need (283), should (381) etc. "Ought" is not on that list. Just saying. And yes, let's agree to disagree and finish this discussion. – Alex B. Jul 30 '12 at 21:25
-
2@AlexB.: I'm not surprised "ought" is not on that list; I expected it to be in the same category as other "rare" words, such as hammer, tooth, yellow, waves, plants, and television. – J.R. Jul 30 '12 at 21:43
Other answers have mostly finished off your questions about contexts where ought to is used, and whether it's used more in formal or informal cases. Peter Shor, Alex B, and tchrist mention the regional form didn't ought to. Tchrist also mentions hadn't ought and might ought to, and notes that the OED says did ought is dialectic, colloquial, and vulgar.
Should ought to is another form sometimes seen (ref. ngrams). In transcriptions it's often rendered as should oughta or more tersely. Here's a should ought to of example, ca. 1914-1919, from You Know Me Al, by Ring Lardner. It represents colloquial or untutored midwestern US letter-writing of the time, perhaps exaggerated:
I shut them out to-day and they should ought not to of had four hits but should ought to of had only 2 but Bodie don't cover no ground and 2 fly balls that he should ought to of eat up fell safe.
On page 354 of Modality in Contemporary English, S. J. Nagle comments on linguistics issues raised by should ought to, might should ought to, might should better, etc., apparently discussing whether these fall within some double- or multiple-modals system or instead are anarchic.
- 66,660
-
-
@Mitch, Near the middle of his answer, tchrist shows a cite the OED terms vulgar, and suggests it's meant in the classical sense, ie, "Having to do with ordinary, common people". Also, dialectal, "Of or relating to a dialect" or "Not linguistically standard" undoubtedly would be a better word choice than dialectic with its "Any formal system of reasoning..." and "A contradiction of ideas..." senses. – James Waldby - jwpat7 Jul 30 '12 at 18:40
Pam Peters writes in The Cambridge Guide to English Usage (2004):
Ought seems to have reached the end of an evolutionary phase in which it might have become a fully fledged modal. But the trappings of its older identity as a lexical verb have hung around — in the fact that to is almost always there to link it with the following verb, and in the use of do support in negative statements. So while ought still works affirmatively as a marginal modal expressing obligation, it is otherwise replaced by modals such as should and must in non-fiction writing of all kinds, everywhere in the world.
- 134,759
-
Neither should nor must imply anything about the current condition. – Evan Carroll Jul 25 '12 at 20:01
-
7I perhaps am mistaken, but I've never read a sentence in which ought to is introduced by do in the negative (for example, "you don't* ought to go the party uninvited"*). I wonder if such statement is correct, or else if I have misunderstood what Ms Peters is claiming in your quotation. – Paola Jul 25 '12 at 20:05
-
@Evan Carroll. Could you expand your comment? I don't speak English, so I have some difficults to understanding that. – Jul 25 '12 at 20:08
-
@Carlo_R. if you use the term "ought to" you're making an implicit statement about the present condition. You'd never say the sun "ought to" come up at 8 AM: firstly, the sun can't react to instruction, secondly the sun already rises at 8 AM. Ought to implies the condition is mutable and it's not currently that way. Your replacements should and must don't carry that burden. – Evan Carroll Jul 25 '12 at 20:12
-
@Paola, a little piece: "You oughtn't to work so late" have to be replaced with "You didn't ought to work so late" said Ms Peters. – Jul 25 '12 at 20:23
-
3In the U.S., you can't say "You didn't ought to work so late" unless you're south of the Mason-Dixon line. You should say "You ought not to work so late" or "You oughtn't to work so late" or "You oughtn't work so late". – Peter Shor Jul 25 '12 at 20:34
-
1@PeterShor When you use “ought not” / “oughtn’t”, you don’t ever use the “to”, in my experience. It becomes a real modal. – tchrist Jul 25 '12 at 20:47
-
1@Carlo_R. This is wrong: Usage of ought has nothing to do with whether something is fiction or nonfiction. It is a perfectly normal word, used in all situations. – tchrist Jul 25 '12 at 20:49
-
@tchrist: you don't need to use the "to" (like you do in the positive), but lots of people do. Consider this Ngram. – Peter Shor Jul 25 '12 at 20:49
-
@PeterShor It actually sounds wrong to me to use the “to” in the negative the way you do in the positive. I can’t generate it and would boggle a moment on hearing it. – tchrist Jul 25 '12 at 20:51
-
2We talking talking here, or writing? Oughta ['ɔɾə] is mostly speech, like gonna, wanna, hafta, and all the other proto-auxiliaries. There really aren't any good conventions for its use in written English; or, rather, there are too many opinions and too little agreement. – John Lawler Jul 25 '12 at 20:52
-
@Paola - The Longman Grammar notes that contemporary speakers often bypass the problem by putting ought into a subordinate clause: "I don't think you ought to work so late." – Jul 25 '12 at 20:52
-
4@Carlo_R: I think the Longman Grammar is wrong. Consider this Ngram. – Peter Shor Jul 25 '12 at 20:55
-
-
@tchrist - strange, most examples of ought were found in British fictional discourse. – Jul 25 '12 at 20:57
-
@Peter Shor - I do not know what corpus data is used for the Longman Grammar, probably it is not the same used in ngram. – Jul 25 '12 at 21:00
-
2@Paola That’s because ought is like a modal, so you can’t use things like do, did, will, won’t etc on it. You can’t say “do should”, “do ought”, “will should”, “will ought”. – tchrist Jul 25 '12 at 21:12
-
@tchrist - That construction (You didn't ought to work so late) may well go back to the roots of 'ought' in the lexical verb 'owe', said Ms Peters. – Jul 25 '12 at 21:29
-
3Gah! Is this a verbatim quote? If so, format it as a quote, give a link and then at least give an additional intelligent comment about its relevance. Otherwise, this is at most worthy of being a comment. – Mitch Jul 25 '12 at 21:43
-
3Owe? I don't know whether it is at the root of the verb form ought, but the owe I'm familiar with means something close to being indebted to someone. Does Ms Peters intend a different meaning? And what exactly is a lexical verb? – Paola Jul 25 '12 at 21:48
-
@tchrist. That's precisely what I thought and the reason why I said I have never encountered such a usage of ought to. – Paola Jul 25 '12 at 21:51
-
Ms Peters said (verbatim quote): "ought - This word is a lone wolf in English grammar - an estranged relative of the verb owe.", @Paola – Jul 25 '12 at 21:51
-
3Sorry if that came across as rude. How about this: Verbatim (or close) quotes should be formatted as such (using '>'). Also please give a link to your reference. And an answer that is only a quote is only worth a comment unless you can add some relevant commentary to point out how it applies to the question. – Mitch Jul 25 '12 at 21:54
-
3@Mitch I also hadn’t at first realized that Carlo had copied the entire section from the cited book, without adding anything of his own. I have reformatted his answer so that this is now clear. I still think it’s in very bad form to do this sort of thing. – tchrist Jul 25 '12 at 21:56
-
@Paola: google/wiki tells me that a 'lexical verb' is what you usually think of as a run-of-the-mill verb, only to distinguish it from helper/auxiliary/function verbs like 'is' 'or 'have' that indicate tense. I guess Peters might consider modal verbs (from a small finite class) are more like function verbs than lexical verbs. Yes, 'lexical verb' sounds funny because one tends to think "aren't all verbs, or words for that matter, lexical?". – Mitch Jul 25 '12 at 21:59
-
1@Paola. However, I know; the Swan (the book that you use) do not say the same things that Ms Peters said (see Swan - third edition - page 403 and 404); but even the Swan does not agree with tchrist because this book report this example "It oughtn't to rain today". Hence, it is absolutely false that "to" is suppressed in negative construction. – Jul 25 '12 at 22:00
-
3@Carlo_R. No, your book is absolutely wrong, that’s all. I swear by my authority as a native speaker that in my dialect, your cited example is absolutely ungrammatical. You cannot contradict me in this. At most, you may be able to find another native speaker who does not find it ungrammatical, but I absolutely do so, and therefore I cannot be wrong in this statement regarding my own dialect. – tchrist Jul 25 '12 at 22:05
-
4@EvanCarroll Actually, you really can say the sun ought to be coming up around 8am tomorrow morning, in the sense that you believe this to be likely because you are not quite sure of the exact moment of sunrise, given that that moment changes daily. Ought can also be about probability, not just about obligation. – tchrist Jul 25 '12 at 22:09
-
1That's an argument I'm willing to accept; however, I have a decent understanding of the term morning and astronomy, and so at least for most populated climates, there is no probability that the sun will not come up short of a solar catastrophe of an unforeseen magnitude. – Evan Carroll Jul 25 '12 at 22:14
-
2@tchrist. In a sense, this is the "problem" with English: it is used so widely, and by native speakers living so far apart, that it becomes difficult to create sentences which are universally considered to be grammatical. I don't doubt for one second that in your dialect, as you put it, ought not is followed by a bare infinitive, but this is not the case in British English, for example. So I suppose that we should all be a bit more tolerant. – Paola Jul 25 '12 at 22:23
-
1This doesn't say that "to" always follow "ought", just mostly. She never says that "don't ought to..." is correct. – Jul 26 '12 at 00:23
-
@PeterShor: I'm not arguing with you (I ought not to do that), but I thought this Ngram was an interesting complement to yours. – J.R. Jul 26 '12 at 01:08
-
2@Carlo: Pam Peters is an Australian; tchrist and I are Americans. I expect "didn't ought to" is used in Australia, and I suppose that it's possible that it is used in the American South, where they use a number of double modals (e.g. "might could") which aren't used by the rest of the U.S. Between tchrist and me, we can personally attest that it's not used in California, the Midwest, New Jersey, New York, and New England. – Peter Shor Jul 26 '12 at 01:09
-
And Googling, it does look like "didn't ought to" is indeed used in the U.S. South and in England. I expect it occurs in Australia as well. – Peter Shor Jul 26 '12 at 01:14
-
@PeterShor Hm, I wonder what “didn’t ought to” means then. Past tense, so somehow a previous obligation condition? BTW, I don’t see “did/had” + modal as a double modal, since did and had aren’t modals, just verbal particles conveying tense/time. Plus “did should” sounds a great deal less grammatical than “might should” sounds. – tchrist Jul 26 '12 at 01:19
-
@tchrist: You're right, it's not a double modal. My mistake. And when Georgette Heyer used it, it meant "ought not to have", and it seems she put it into the mouth of someone who wasn't speaking the poshest dialect. – Peter Shor Jul 26 '12 at 01:23
-
1@Carlo_R.: "My book is not a generic book. You cannot contradict what Ms Peters said." Perhaps so, but you ought not to quote one paragraph from Ms Peters and consider that to be the end of the discussion. Ms Peters accurately documents the shift in usage away from ought not, but that doesn't mean the expression is entirely extinct. As a matter of fact, Google books returns over 3 million hits for ought not to; many seem a bit archaic, but not all do. – J.R. Jul 26 '12 at 01:28
-
3As a follow-on to my previous comment, here is an example where ought not to is used in a modern context. This was found on Page 6 of 3,440,000 results in a Google book search. As common as should? Absolutely not. But in no way is @tchrist wrong in his assertion that ought "is a perfectly normal word" – nothing abnormal about it. – J.R. Jul 26 '12 at 01:39
-
1@J.R. Remember that when you’re searching specifically for instances of “ought not to”, you’re necessarily discarding all hits from those of us who suppress to following ought not, oughtn’t, ought never, etc. For the record, my last published book contains 17 instances of ought, exactly 17 of which were positive not negative. The negative somehow sounds more formal; I wonder whether that has anything to do with the to-suppression. – tchrist Jul 26 '12 at 01:55
-
@tchrist: I realize there are plenty of other ways to structure my search; but I needn't be that exhaustive to make my point :^) – J.R. Jul 26 '12 at 02:17
-
1I know Pam Peters is a professor of linguistics, but as @Peter Shor points out, she's also an Australian who edits Australian dictionaries. I'm suspicious that what she writes here may be more biased opinion/her own personal style guide, rather than the result of extensive global surveys that I doubt Cambridge University Press paid to have conducted. In short, I trust her not. – FumbleFingers Jul 26 '12 at 02:21
-
@J.R. You’ve (indirectly) made me realize that there is a difference with where you put the never. If it goes before ought, there is no suppression of to, but if it follows it, there is. “You never ought to run in church,” versus “You ought never run in church.” Curious, eh? – tchrist Jul 26 '12 at 02:22
-
2@FumbleFingers, obviously you didn't even bother to read the preface in Pam Peter's guide. Otherwise, you wouldn't have said that. – Alex B. Jul 26 '12 at 03:02
-
@Alex B.: I don't have access to the text - I've only seen the fragment cited by Carlo. I voiced a suspicion, is all. But the issue here is largely about what is and what isn't used by competent speakers (not prevalent), and what's acceptable (not sanctioned by a particular style guide). Whether Peters is bona fide or not is rather beside the point. Like tchrist, and Humpty Dumpty, and unlike Carlo, I'm usually content with my own version of "acceptable English usage". – FumbleFingers Jul 26 '12 at 03:26
-
I'm afraid there's some misunderstanding. Pam Peter's Guide is descriptive. She doesn't tell you how to speak or write. She merely reports research findings of other linguists. Acceptability is when this or that native speaker says, "sounds/looks good to me!" Linguists observe and/or ask native speakers (the more the better) and write rules. – Alex B. Jul 26 '12 at 03:51
-
2@Alex: The problem is that for "ought", Peter's "descriptive" guide does not in any way describe the actual usage in the U.S. I believe that here she extrapolated the grammar of Australia to that of the U.K. and the U.S. I suspect that she's usually fairly careful about doing that, but she slipped up in this instance. – Peter Shor Jul 29 '12 at 15:22
-
1@J.R. Your Ngram convinces me that Longman knows what they're talking about here (as they almost always do). – Peter Shor Jul 29 '12 at 15:28
-
1@PeterShor, so, I assume that 1. You've read the relevant entry in the Cambridge Guide yourself; 2. You've done a number of elicitation and acceptability judgment experiments yourself with US and British native speakers; 3. You've searched several corpora besides Google Ngrams and tried to analyze your findings. – Alex B. Jul 29 '12 at 17:08
-
@Alex B.: You've made the point that CGEU is descriptive. Clearly several here don't think it accurately describes their usage (and by implication, the usage of others within their linguistic community). The issue here is mainly concerned with the possibility that Carlo_R is interpreting CGEU as prescriptive. CGEU could be 100% accurate in everything it says about usage (and trends), but with a word as common as "ought", I don't think many native speakers would change the way they use it just because they discovered they were in the minority in global terms. – FumbleFingers Jul 29 '12 at 20:35
-
1@FumbleFingers, I see. I can't tell you why Carlo thought that the Cambridge Guide was prescriptive. However, I do know that some L2 English learners think of English grammar as "cut and dried, right and wrong". On the contrary, English grammar is "imbued with points of variability to explore" (Pam Peters). – Alex B. Jul 29 '12 at 20:47
-
1@Alex B.: Carlo isn't a native speaker, but he's dilligently and enthusiastically attempting to improve his command and understanding of English. Naturally, at his level there would be a tendency to treat everything in a publication like CGEU as "prescriptive". For his purposes, at his current level, practically everything listed as "most common current usage" any such tome is effectively the same thing as "recommended usage". But I expect by now he has realised that competent speakers don't always feel they ought better "follow the crowd" (Can I get away with that? I think I can! :). – FumbleFingers Jul 29 '12 at 20:58
-
@AlexB. That can be said for almost any language, not just English. The problem is that they tend to simplify the grammar, when they teach you a foreign language. – apaderno Jul 30 '12 at 23:55
-
1@FumbleFingers, a funny quote for you from the How to be British Collection (2003). "Expressions to learn: 'E nicked it off a lorry and now the coppers 'ave done 'im for it. Avoid saying: That's not correct English, Mrs. Jones - it says so in my grammar book." – Alex B. Aug 01 '12 at 18:11
Use ought to when you wish to emphasize that:
- things aren't that way now.
- and, you wish things to be that way.
I think ought to is slightly more formal but only in the very nature that it adds emphasis without invoking vulgarity, and that's usually formal.
Here is an example,
I know the users of english.stackexchange.com don't have the final say so on the decision to unban users, but they ought to have the final say so.
- 97,231
- 1,410
-
3Do you know what "Schleichwerbung" in German means? I don't know if "surreptitious advertising" is the correct translation. However, that is not part of an answer and -imho- does not belong to here. – Em1 Jul 25 '12 at 19:50
-
It's additional information. What's wrong with that, where is that against the rules? – Evan Carroll Jul 25 '12 at 19:53
-
1
-
5(I for one don't have strong feelings this way or the other, because as far as the elections are concerned, that note might actually attract a couple more people who weren't even aware of them, and as far as your own candicacy goes, you'll be shooting yourself in the foot at best, which is your fair right, but as far as the rules go,) that bit was unrelated to the question at hand and too localized, i.e. obsolete in a couple weeks. – RegDwigнt Jul 25 '12 at 19:58
-