2

What are the correct English pronunciations of (Roman emperor) names such as Theodosius, Anastasius, Decius, Leontius, Gratian, Marcian...

I am having difficulties with -tiu vs. -siu, -tia vs. -cia. Should those be pronounced as [ʃə], [tɪə] or [sɪə]?

I was unable to find anything online. "tchrist"'s Wikipedia link on traditional English pronunciation of Latin does not provide an answer. My question is pretty specific about the pronunciation of proper Latin names containing -tiu, -siu, -tia and -cia. No such information is to be found anywhere on that webpage.

Mitch
  • 71,423
Just
  • 49
  • It depends whether you are aiming at Classical (t is /t/, c is /k/), Traditional English (more /s/ and /ʃ/ in your examples) or Catholic (more [ts] and [tʃ]) – Henry Jun 09 '13 at 08:24
  • @Henry Thanks for you comment. I know the Latin pronunciations (classic or medieval). I am more interested in a detailed description of the common English ones. – Just Jun 09 '13 at 08:31
  • The issue is that you have specified that the names refer to Roman Emperors. If you had simply asked how you might reasonably pronounce a name you encountered, say Leontius Fortescue-O'Connell, with some other similar examples, it would be relatively easy for the community to answer based on their own regional dialect. – Andrew Leach Jun 09 '13 at 09:09
  • 3
    See this article on the traditional English pronunciation of Latin. – tchrist Jun 09 '13 at 10:57
  • @tchrist: Your hyperlink took me to a doctoral dissertation. As a student of law, I was hoping I would be given some pointers on how to pronounce some common legal terms. I've tried searching for such a guide online, but thus far I haven't been able to locate a really good one. What search terms might I use to have better success? – rhetorician Jun 09 '13 at 13:23
  • @rhetorician I know no better resource that the one I have cited. That article gives you everything you need, with the possible exception of willingness to invest the time required to understand it and consequent to that understanding, to apply it. Some topics simply take more than a 3-second Google “gimme-that-answer-RIGHT-NOW!!!” approach to actually apply, let alone master. If you want only the shallow but immediate gratification of being handed a fish like some trained seal, go hire a lawyer; I was trying to teach you *how* to fish. – tchrist Jun 09 '13 at 13:52
  • @rhetorician: Really? Any individual lawyer who tried to pronounce it other than the traditional English way in an English court would be laughed at. That's language for you. – Mitch Jun 09 '13 at 18:02
  • @tchrist: "But it's so haaaaaaaaard," I say in my whiniest voice. By the way, I would venture to guess the vast majority of lawyers do not know how to pronounce the Latin words in their profession. Perhaps spelling them correctly is sufficient for the most part. By the way, I have yet to hear a lawyer pronounce "ultra vires" OOL TRAH WEE RAYS, or "prima facie "PREE MAH FAH KEY AY, or "de jure" DAY YOU RAY, or "sub poena" SOOB POI NA, or "affidavit" UHF FEE DAY WIT, or "alibi" AH LEE BEE, or "alias" AH LEE AHS, ad finitum (AD IN FEE NEE TOOM)! – rhetorician Jun 09 '13 at 18:04
  • 1
    @rhetorician Do not use any Latin term until His Worship has done so first, and then (mis)pronounce it in exactly the same way that he does. It is a tried and true method that has served (non-pedantic) advocates for centuries. – Fortiter Jun 10 '13 at 02:41
  • @Fortiter: Good point. To have the temerity to "correct" a judge in court by pronouncing a Latin phrase "correctly" after hearing him or her pronounce it "incorrectly" is ill-advised indeed. It is best for an advocate to stay on the judge's good side by being deferential whenever possible. – rhetorician Jun 10 '13 at 03:04
  • @rhetorician Researching this answer to a question about Law French suggested that Black's Law Dictionary is authoritative. – StoneyB on hiatus Jun 11 '13 at 11:16
  • @StoneyB: Thanks for the citations. I'll check to see if LexisNexis allows me to look up Latin legal phrases and their pronunciations in their online version of Black's. – rhetorician Jun 11 '13 at 22:33

2 Answers2

2

The short answer is that we pronounce them as though they were English, so for the most part all of those get [ʃ] there. Marcian sounds like a little green Martian.

The values of the vowels are of course different, too, so you get things like Gratian becoming [ˈgreɪʃən]. And you have Cicero becoming [sɪsɨɹoʊ] instead of [ˈkɪkɛɹo] — well, or Tully, which is decidedly odd.

A longer explanation can be found in the Wikipedia article on the traditional English pronunciation of Latin.

tchrist
  • 134,759
1

"Correct pronunciation" isn't a definite single thing. The pronunciation of -ci-, -si-, -ti- before a final unstressed syllable in such names is fairly variable. The following pronunciation variants are all within the norm.

The spelling -ci- can correspond to /si/, /ʃi/ or /ʃ/.

The spelling -si- can correspond to /si/, /ʃi/, /ʃ/, /zi/, /ʒi/ or /ʒ/.

  • The pronunciations /zi/, /ʒi/ or /ʒ/ are only possible after a vowel, or for American English speakers, after /r/.

The spelling -ti- can correspond to /ʃi/, /ʃ/, /ti/.

  • /ti/ is not very common, and many names seem to lack variant pronunciations with /ti/. But some pronunciation guides, e.g. The elements of Latin grammar, Richard Hiley (1849), suggest that /ti/ is to be expected in Greek words/names. That would favor the use of /ti/ in "Leontius" (Greek Λεόντιος).

  • After "s", "ti" cannot be pronounced as /ʃi/ or /ʃ/. Instead, the possible pronunciations are /ti/, /tʃi/ and /tʃ/.

  • There is supposed to be a rule (mentioned by Hiley) that "tti" is pronounced /ti/.

After "n", some speakers have no distinction between /ʃ/ and /tʃ/, so they might use /tʃ/ instead of /ʃ/ in words spelled with -nci-, nsi- or -nti-.

Other pronunciations of these spelling patterns exist, but it's probably safe to classify them as irregular/exceptional. E.g. -ti- is exceptionally pronounced as /ʒ/ by many speakers in the word equation, and as /si/ by some speakers in the word negotiation.

herisson
  • 81,803