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I have to formulate this question very carefully. So I would say I have the impression that the knowledge in grammar matters of English mother-tongue speakers is as an average lower when compared to speakers of other languages. I am not quite sure whether everybody will agree. I wonder what may be the causes. One cause is obvious. As English has reduced almost all grammatical endings and has elegantly replaced the function of grammatical endings by other means such as prepositions, auxiliary verbs, modal verbs and position it is a lot more difficult to see how the grammar system of English works. I am astonished to see how many people have problems with basic grammar things such as word classes or structures of sentences. But I assume there must be other causes. I would be interested to hear opinions.

rogermue
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    This is a fascinating question that is really POB. – David M Apr 02 '14 at 03:32
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    It is an interesting question. I learned more about grammar by studying other languages, than from instruction in my native English. I will point out that flawless use of grammar may distinguish a non-native speaker from a native speaker, however. – Mike Apr 02 '14 at 03:45
  • @DavidM Sorry, but I have to ask what is POB. – rogermue Apr 02 '14 at 03:48
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    @rogermue Primarily Opinion Based. It's a closure reason on this site. I love this question, but unfortunately, the answer cannot be anything more than opinion. – David M Apr 02 '14 at 03:48
  • In my view there are concrete causes to be found but I would really like to hear what possible causes others see. The conveying of knowledge is a science. But mostly every mistake that can be made is made in this field. – rogermue Apr 02 '14 at 03:57
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    You are begging the question. Native English speakers by definition have mastered the grammar of their language. Are you, perhaps, not asking about "knowledge in grammar matters" but instead asking about "knowledge of the rules of the formal style"? Or perhaps you are misidentifying non-native speakers as natives? – nohat Apr 02 '14 at 04:20
  • Isaid it is my impression. And I judge by questions asked by – rogermue Apr 02 '14 at 04:33
  • @rogermue In principle, I think you could re-phrase your question to ask about actual facts/research, but as it stands I agree with those who have voted to close as what is being asked is simply a matter of opinion. – Neil Coffey Apr 02 '14 at 05:48
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    I have to say I think your basic premise is flawed. English speakers are no more or less aware of the formal rules of their native tongue's grammar than anyone else, and linguistic topology has little to do with it. I know quite a few people who have Finnish and Greenlandic as their native language—both languages on the extreme opposite of the scale as far as inflection goes—and none of them have a clue about the formal rules of grammar in their own language, either. – Janus Bahs Jacquet Apr 02 '14 at 05:54
  • rogermue, there is a simple reason for it, in the UK. Grammar is not normally taught in most schools. – Tristan r Apr 02 '14 at 11:03
  • I think there is much more than opinion involved. This is the general experience of every professional English grammarian I know (and I know most of them). As I have said repeatedly here, Anglophone schools do not teach English grammar; they often teach some ill-understood terminology about grammar, and some ridiculous mythology about grammar, but they don't teach English grammar. Period. You may consider this a vote to take it off hold so we can have a full discussion here. – John Lawler Apr 02 '14 at 15:35
  • Thanks, but it is not necessary. I knew that this question – rogermue Apr 02 '14 at 19:20

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I think you have some valid points, but I also think you're making a lot of assumptions.

One needs to know what the average native English speaker is. From your definition, my children are not average; they know basic grammar. They learned Latin and Spanish in grammar/high school, and one also learned Greek in college, two continued Spanish, and one studied French. Yet, among their peers, they are, I assure you, quite average. Also, most high schools in America require the study of a second language, as do all Liberal Arts programs in college. So I'm curious how you know such facts as you state. Who, exactly, is your average English speaker?

Also unknown is exactly how much grammar all other speakers learn. Spanish is the second most common language after English, and it is not a heavily inflected language. I find it much easier than English. I would find it hard to believe that native Spanish speakers are more fluent in grammar than other languages. People learn their native languages not by studying grammar, but by hearing it spoken, and in learning how to write (composition, not cursive).

Chinese is spoken by a large population, and it is almost devoid of inflection. How much grammar do you think they learn, when their language is basically much simpler in structure than ours (English)?

I think your opinions are just that: your opinions. I have no true knowledge of their validity, and I'm willing to wager that you have no authoritative studies to back them up. As such, you are simply stating your biases and asking for confirmation of those biases. I don't know of what use that is to most users here, except to promote your biases.

anongoodnurse
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  • I would like to read the result of a PISA test of American school children about their capacity to handle a dictionary – rogermue Apr 02 '14 at 06:49
  • and a grammar so that they can use all the information in those reference books. – rogermue Apr 02 '14 at 06:51
  • There is no such thing as an "average" native English speaker. Everybody is different. Seriously. What we've found is that the closer you look, the more individual differences there are. – John Lawler Apr 02 '14 at 17:09
  • @JohnLawler - you've spoken exactly to my point. Thank you. – anongoodnurse Apr 02 '14 at 17:16
  • @John Lawler - I don't know whether in the English-speaking world something like the Pisa tests is known, but these test have shown that there are astonising differences between European countries. These results are average values, even if every pupil is an individual learner. Nevertheless the Pisa tests have resulted in valuable information for each country. – rogermue Apr 02 '14 at 19:17
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From my own experience:

In school, grammar was something learned primarily by example and trial-and-error. The formal rules of grammar were not heavily emphasized. Literature and its analysis were really the focus of our English education.

In fact, I've learned more about English grammar from studying foreign languages than I ever did from schooling.

In addition, I agree with you that English is not a heavily inflected language. There is minimal (if any) conjugation of verbs. And, our lack of complex tenses, a true subjunctive, and other grammatical constructs make it unnecessary to learn much grammar.

And, as with any native speaker of a language: speaking the language is far different from understanding the language. Many times when asked why something is correct or incorrect, my answer is a shoulder shrug.

David M
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  • English is not a heavily inflected language, but it is an inflected language, and only slightly less so than most of the Romance languages, which are considered inflected languages. – anongoodnurse Apr 02 '14 at 05:16
  • @medica Consider my error a part of my answer, then. I clearly know nothing of the structure of my own language … ;-) – David M Apr 02 '14 at 13:38
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    Inflection is not very important in English grammar; what *is* important is syntax, which nobody ever studies in Anglophone schools. And which is the origin of most of the questions we get in ELU. – John Lawler Apr 02 '14 at 15:39
  • @DavidM - I can't tell if you're kidding or not. Clearly you know a lot about your language of birth. But if you're not kidding, you might be interested in this. – anongoodnurse Apr 02 '14 at 16:35
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    @medica: I'm sure they studied something that was called "grammar", and they may well have studied syntax (though syntax is part of grammar, not a separate study). But names can be deceiving, and study is only as good as what's taught and who's teaching it. My "ridiculously high standards" are simple respect for fact, rather than mythology. I taught college-level English grammar to (very intelligent and well-educated) native American English speakers from 1972 to 2008, and I'm reporting on what I found. I could give you more information if you were interested. But clearly you aren't. – John Lawler Apr 02 '14 at 16:56
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    I don't insist on that at all. Bible reading is not ordinary reading; do it any way you like -- just don't insist that everybody else do it the same way. I won't even talk about biological evolution, I promise -- only language change. – John Lawler Apr 02 '14 at 17:06
  • @JohnLawler - I believe in evolution, so that would present no problem. I also believe it should be taught to every schoolchild in the US including home-schooled kids. Like grammar and composition. And Latin. But, if wishes were horses, beggars would ride. – anongoodnurse Apr 03 '14 at 09:30
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I can say that I grew up with good to great school systems and have a degree in Writing. I can barely point out a noun, verb, and adjective in a sentence. Anything else is based on the ear test.

The way you phrase your question sounds like you were one of my editors. They would continuously tell me, "You can't just write the way you would speak or have a conversation." I would let them make changes if they could unequivocally convince me that something I wrote was improper grammar. [yes I switched tenses randomly, shoot me]

And that is where your question breaks down - and it is a fascinating question. Most things that you read are grammatically debatable. There is opinion and grey area. Someone can always make a point that you could have wrote something a better way.

But I would agree with you on your assumption based on the fact that most native English speakers aren't as well versed in other languages. By logically linking languages together you are expanding the understanding the constructs of your own. It is this point that probably gives your reasoning justification.

RyeɃreḁd
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