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If the tense change of the verb "need" to "needed" is not mandatory, then if it was changed then how would it affect the meaning in the sentences below?

If they asked for help, I would provide whatever help they need.
If they asked for help, I would provide whatever help they needed.

phenry
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niab
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  • Technically, OP's #1 invalidly mixes tenses (it should be "If they ask* for help, I will provide whatever help they need.") But in casual contexts people do this all the time (which is presumably why OP says "regression of the verb is not mandatory"). Semantically it makes no difference, but probably the most* "correct" form would be "If they were to ask* for help, I would provide whatever help they needed"*. – FumbleFingers Apr 14 '14 at 13:59
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    @FumbleFingers: What do you mean, "technically"? Is this a personal judgement, or are you referring to a formal standard? If so, which one? If it's a personal judgement, the term "technically" seems misused. I mention this because this is a term that people often use on ELU when they're reporting what they think their grammar school teacher would say about it. – John Lawler Apr 14 '14 at 14:03
  • @John: I didn't mean to imply there's a "formal standard" which specifically applies to OP's construction - simply that there *is* a mix of tenses, which I think on average native speakers would tend to avoid in this or closely-related constructions (always assuming they actually notice it). Thus, "If you marry me, we'll live wherever you want", or "If you married me, we'd live wherever you wanted" both seem more "natural" to me. Using marry + wanted sounds totally weird, but married + want is still very slightly odd (or maybe it just emphasises what you already want). – FumbleFingers Apr 14 '14 at 14:24
  • ...besides which, if you had have asked me, I'd say you're more prescriptivist than me. Until you posted that answer, I had no problem with assuming 'd stands for had in such constructions. I'm not unduly bothered about logic or "rules" when it comes to language use. If people use a format and it's understood by others (without being universally criticised), that's usually good enough for me. – FumbleFingers Apr 14 '14 at 14:33
  • In other words, it's your opinion, right? OK, just checking; I really do care about technical matters. BTW, to answer the question: No, "regression of the verb" is not mandatory. This is a teaching phrase and does not represent anything real about English. – John Lawler Apr 14 '14 at 15:12
  • I suppose everything I believe is "my opinion". And since I'm aware that technically speaking, whatever I think the word *tense* means in respect of verb forms isn't exactly "correct", I accept I might even be wrong in saying OP's #1 "mixes tenses" in the first place. But leaving that aside, what I meant (by using technically, invalidly, should, probably, "correct") was that I assume at least some other people would see aspects of right/wrong here. But to me it's more about what's *more common* (in my opinion, backed up up by relevant usage statistics if I can find any such). – FumbleFingers Apr 14 '14 at 17:29
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    What is 'regression of the verb' supposed to mean (whether it in fact exists or not)? – Mitch Apr 21 '14 at 13:12

2 Answers2

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I think FumbleFingers has it spot on here and there definitely is a technical issue which involves the formal standard usage of the English language.

If they asked for help = If they did ask for help

. . . so did they or did they not ask for help? We need the answer to this question before we can know how to formulate the main clause correctly.

The problem arises not because need and needed potentially could imply two different meanings, but because the conditional present "I would provide" only makes sense in relation to something which may or may not be about to happen at a future moment whereas the help they did or did not ask for already is a past (non)event.

"If they had asked for help, I would have provided whatever help they needed"

makes perfect sense, because the use of the past perfect leaves us in no doubt that they did not ask for help and the conditional perfect indicates that help was not provided by me, and therefore the perfect form "needed" must also be used here. Or -

"If (= Should it happen that) they ask for help I would provide whatever help they need"

but in this case as fumblefingers notes the subjunctive mood "Were they to ask for help . . "

is by far the preferred formal standard, where this is coupled with the conditional "would". Otherwise "If they ask for help I will provide whatever help they need" gives the clearest indication of intent.

Thuba
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1.) If they asked for help, I would provide whatever help they need.

2.) If they asked for help, I would provide whatever help they needed.

Since no context was provided, I'm going to write this post with some assumptions. At first blush, I'm going to assume that this question is being asked in a context where the following open conditional construction is relevant:

  • 3.) If they ask for help, I will provide whatever help they need.

A corresponding remote conditional construction is:

  • 4.) If they asked for help, I would provide whatever help they need/needed.

The remote conditional is different front the open conditional in that, for the remote version, the speaker is expressing the opinion that it is doubtful, or somewhat doubtful, that the "they" will actually ask the speaker for help.

Modal remoteness in conditional constructions is usually expressed by changing present-tense verbs into past-tense verbs ("modal preterite" is the term for this type of usage of past-tense verbs). In this case: "ask" to "asked" and "will" to would".

When a subordinate clause (that is headed by a present-tense verb) is subordinate to a clause that is headed by a past-tense verb, then often that subordinate clause's verb will change from present-tense to past-tense. This type of change is called backshifting. Note that in your case, the subordinate clause is "whatever help they need", and the superordinate clause is "I would provide X".

Sometimes backshifting is obligatory, sometimes it is optional, sometimes it is not allowed. There are conditions under which backshifting can be done. Here is a post that goes into more detail:

In your specific example, I'd think that both versions are acceptable: the non-backshifted "need" and the backshifted "needed". The context would determine how acceptable either version is. At first blush, I'd think that the backshifted version "needed" would be the default version for most contexts. I'm sorta seeing the non-backshifted "need" as more appropriate for a context where the speaker is stressing or emphasizing the info in "whatever help they need".

To the OP: If this post is not addressing the question you are trying to ask, then please let us know and perhaps provide more context to your question.

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F.E.
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