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Which answer is correct?

Tony _______to have children until his little daughter was born. After she won his heart, he decided he wanted a big family.

A. didn't want.
B. hadn't wanted.

This is a multiple choice question from the Understanding and Using English Grammar Workbook 3rd edition by Betty Azar. To me, both answers are correct as I cannot see the diffrence. Please show me the wrong option to delete.

RegDwigнt
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phuloctoday
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    Hadn't wanted is the technically correct option, but didn't want is the more common one. – Anonym Apr 30 '14 at 17:01
  • You were correct in identifying "until" as the critical part of this sentence that determines tense. "had not wanted" is past-perfect tense. The past-perfect tense is used when Event 1 occurs in the past prior to Event 2. ~~~~ Past event 1: I did not want children. ~~~ Subsequent event 2: my daughter was born. ~~~~~~~~ "I had not wanted (event 1) UNTIL (event 2). – Apple Freejeans Apr 30 '14 at 17:32
  • Thank you. So you mean option B is correct? English is so confusing. I am desperate! – phuloctoday Apr 30 '14 at 17:36
  • I respect Gary's Student, but until I see him give a reason for why the past-perfect tense is incorrect... Yes. It is my opinion that B should be your answer. – Apple Freejeans Apr 30 '14 at 17:38
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    Right answer, but relying upon the 'until' is still too simple a clue. "I didn't want to come by until I knew you were home" has the until and requires the didn't. – Jon Jay Obermark Apr 30 '14 at 17:47
  • @JonJayObermark Please refer to my answer below. In this use of past-perfect tense, a continuous event occurs UNTIL a subsequent event alters that state. I believe that 'until' is the critical word here, representing that change of status. – Apple Freejeans Apr 30 '14 at 17:53
  • Thank you A Prejean. Have a nice day. It's 1am in my country now :) – phuloctoday Apr 30 '14 at 17:54
  • @APrejean: OK, but the counterexample also stands. The 'until' is helpful, as it is often the cue to look closer. But actually determining whether or not there are multiple past time-frames to keep in mind is still necessary. – Jon Jay Obermark Apr 30 '14 at 17:59
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    Please don't cross-post between this site and ELU. – Chenmunka Apr 30 '14 at 17:59

6 Answers6

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He hadn't wanted children until then.

Saying 'didn't want ... until ...' would imply that he had always wanted the event to occur, but not before the condition was met. "I didn't want to come over until you were home."

In this case he did not want the event to occur, but then changed his mind. That establishes a point in the past when he changed his mind, and places the 'not wanting' before that point, calling for a past perfect. "I had'nt wanted to come over until I heard you all having such fun."

As the ongoing war against potentially superfluous commas advances, you might write option A in place of "He didn't want to have children, until his daughter was born." This says he had a confirmed state of mind, which is now over, for good. Then you would expect the followup sentence to be "Now that she has won his heart, he has decided he wants a big family" Since the past is spoken for, we would need to frame the followup with 'want' in the present tense, and push the other events around to make logical sense.

Jon Jay Obermark
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Everyone has explained very well why the past perfect is the correct answer. I'll just mention this. The reason that the simple past isn't correct is simply context. It doesn't make sense to say that you don't want to have a child until your child is born (it goes without saying, as we say), so it doesn't make sense to say that you didn't want to have children until your child was born, either. The second sentence makes it more clear that he changed his mind about having children once his first child was born.

Now, if the context were different, the simple past would be entirely correct: "I didn't want to have children until I found a job." Compare this with "I hadn't wanted to have children until I found a job, but then I won $100 million in a lottery." You can see (I hope) that context is what implies which tense to use.

BobRodes
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  • There is a common format where one can say "He didn't want to have children, until he had one." (In the sense of "And yet he had one.") That uses the simple past, in an emphatic form. So what you say here is not quite as obvious as it seems. Someone with good credibility here claims the comma in the middle of that form is optional, and the meaning is the same without it. But I don't think so. I think that the 'until' connected straight to the verb has one priority, and separated it would have a different one. Besides, allowing that form would make the question unanswerable... – Jon Jay Obermark May 02 '14 at 04:10
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In this context didn't is correct because we are referring to something definite and in the past. If we were talking about something in past that was an alternative or unreal - did not actually happen, then we would use hadn't :

If I hadn't eaten so much, my stomach would not hurt.

EDIT:

I am reversing my opinion.... until establishes a past alternative, so Pick option B

Gary's Student
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  • Thank you for your answer. But this is an MCQ and i have to choose only one option. If only i had the key to see what the writer says. Anyway, this is the 2nd edition. If anyone has the key, please kindly show me. – phuloctoday Apr 30 '14 at 17:15
  • Yes. Thank you. By the way, I've check the Oxford dictionary and see this sentence 'Until she spoke i hadn't realized she was English.' Why not 'I didn't realize'. How does this differ from my sentence? Sorry for being so silly. Thanks – phuloctoday Apr 30 '14 at 17:28
  • @Gary'sStudent I disagree. Pick option B. (Reasoning above in comment) – Apple Freejeans Apr 30 '14 at 17:36
  • @APrejean I see your reasoning......... until establishes the alternate. Pick option B – Gary's Student Apr 30 '14 at 17:44
  • Hi, Gary's Student. Now that you agree with APrejean I feel relieved :) i was between two of you and didn't know which way to go. Thank you. At last i have your answers. Have a nice day! – phuloctoday Apr 30 '14 at 17:53
  • @Gary'sStudent Thumbing up your response. The only reason I even bothered posting here was because I usually respect your opinions. Thanks for not being spiteful and allowing me to converse with you on the topic. (I have not found everyone to be so open-minded.) – Apple Freejeans Apr 30 '14 at 17:59
  • @APrejean Thanks for your help......I named myself Student as a reminder that I must never stop learning. – Gary's Student Apr 30 '14 at 18:53
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http://www.englishpage.com/verbpage/pastperfect.html

enter image description here

Now, apply this to your sentence:

Tony had not wanted to have children until his little daughter was born.

Past Event 1: Tony had not wanted to have a child (this was a continuous event until...)

Past Event 2: Tony had a child. (Which discontinued Event 1.)

This is an appropriate use of the past-perfect tense.

Apple Freejeans
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Option B is correct as it's classical Past Perfect: he'd changed his mind (completed an action) after another action in the past (his baby girl was born). Option A would be ok if actions go one after another immediately: he noted the washing machine serial number and phoned the technical support.

kupleva
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  • @ Kaz: Thank you for a good answer! You're right but judging from the question the sentence under question was taken from an exercise where they usually expect utilising particular tenses to ensure the student understands them –  Apr 30 '14 at 18:29
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Either choice is fine. It is never strictly necessary to use the past perfect; it is just a nicer style (when used correctly); it adds a touch of eloquence to the sentence.

Not all native English speaker utilize the past perfect, at least not in every conceivable situation when they could do so.

The important lesson here is that you can use the past perfect in that situation.

As a learner of English, you must learn about the past perfect and when it may be used and why. You will never go wrong if you don't use it (just less sophisticated); but it can be inappropriately and awkwardly used.

Why we can say:

Tony hadn't wanted children until his daughter was born.

is that we have two clauses:

S1 until S2

S2 is in the past ("his daughter was born"). S1 is also in the past: moreover, it is in an earlier past than S2. The "until" word clearly places it there: S2 is in the past, and there is a causal relationship between S1 and S2 such that S1 is before S2. Therefore it is legitimate to use this "past before past" English construction: the past perfect.

The meaning is still clear if the simple past is used for both clauses, and no rule is broken.

Kaz
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