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New York is a great place to live.

New York is a great place to live in.

I've seen the former usage a lot and I've started wondering what the grammar aspects of it are.

The main question I'm asking involves the grammar when the preposition in the end of the sentence is deleted. Is it equally formal or correct to omit it? What are the grammar properties of this?

Some more examples of similar usage:

This organisation is a great place to work.

This is a great place to stay/sit/study/travel/go.

Just to show that 'live' isn't special in this case.

Note: I'd posted the same question on ELL before, but the answers were not satisfying enough (the answers there did not seem to provide the precise grammar aspects of this, those that could be in a serious grammar book), so I'm posting this here to get some more views on the question. I hope it is acceptable.

user26486
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  • You might want to search for duplicates on this. Tell us what they're not able to provide for you an answer. – SrJoven Aug 25 '14 at 14:33
  • Not sure about "This is a great place to go," unless of course you're talking about excreting urine, and "to go" is as good a euphemism as any, I guess! Despite its ending in a preposition, perhaps "This is a great place to go to" would be better. Or perhaps, "This is a great destination." Just some random thoughts. Don – rhetorician Aug 25 '14 at 14:38
  • @SrJoven After a glance, those questions mostly are about how prepositions are/aren't used at the end of a sentence and are somewhere else instead, but this one focuses on something different - about when prepositions can be omitted altogether. If you do find a duplicate though, please share it with us. – user26486 Aug 25 '14 at 14:42
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    @rhetorician: "This is a great place to go" sounds OK to me. "This organisation is a great place to work", however, irks me somehow. – Cerberus - Reinstate Monica Aug 25 '14 at 14:43
  • @mathh, if you have more specificity, please include it in the question instead of comments, just in case. Currently, you're asking for grammar related to (essentially) whether or not to include a preposition at the end of a sentence. If you want to know "When can the preposition be dropped and the sentence still be grammatically correct and have the intended meeting?" Please ask that question. – SrJoven Aug 25 '14 at 14:52
  • There is often no authoritative answer on questions involving various deletions. This is preposition deletion; I'm not sure that many people would take a stand against 'New York is a great place to live / work / eat out ...' (especially not New Yorkers). Some similar examples sound less acceptable (A modern coach is a great vehicle to tour. This film was the one she'd always wanted to star.) – Edwin Ashworth Aug 25 '14 at 15:01
  • @SrJoven I've edited it a bit, but I do feel that the examples perfectly represent the exact question I'm asking. – user26486 Aug 25 '14 at 15:07
  • @SrJoven (Use quotes to show that the first few sentences are quoting me so that everyone knows it is not you (and I've removed the sentences and edited the question a bit)) My question is all about the grammar of removing the preposition from a sentence in the similar cases shown in the question, I'm sorry if the question appears ambiguous. – user26486 Aug 25 '14 at 15:14
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    @Edwin I don't think there is any preposition deletion going on here at all (see my answer). – Janus Bahs Jacquet Aug 25 '14 at 15:15
  • @mathh: I think your question is fine. – Cerberus - Reinstate Monica Aug 25 '14 at 15:16
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    @SrJoven None of those links answer this question at all. It's a very fine question. In order to understand the issue better, try I live a great place or I work a great place. Seems like you can't work a place or live a place ... If you can't work a place, how come you can say this is a great place to work? – Araucaria - Him Aug 25 '14 at 23:00
  • @Arucaria You also don't say "I to work in a great place". Nor do you say I to work in* a great place*. (It's more about the preposition after an infinitive than asking about a preposition that happens after a conjugated verb). – SrJoven Aug 26 '14 at 11:54
  • I think the question/answer is/should be more about verb preposition pairings in general than whether to drop at the end of a sentence. You may visit or go to or live at or live in or simply live or exist. – SrJoven Aug 26 '14 at 12:06

1 Answers1

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Simply put: without the preposition, the infinitive is either a truly intransitive verb, or a truly transitive one; with the preposition, it is what is sometimes called a prepositional verb, i.e., a verb that—similar to how phrasal verbs work—must be paired with a preposition to take an object. The object is then not a direct object, but it is still semantically (and to a certain extent also syntactically) the object of the verb.

1A. I need a pen to write with.
1B. I need a pen to write.
2A. I have a book to write in.
2B. I have a book to write.

The difference here is clear: in the A sentences, it's explicitly stated that the pen is the instrument with which you will be writing and the book is the place you'll be writing. In 1B, a pen is just given as something that you need to have in order to carry out the act of writing; other things in that category would be paper, a desk, a chair, etc. (or these days, a laptop). In 2B, the book is simply the object of the verb.

In other words, when there is no preposition, you have to look at the constituents in the sentence to determine whether the verb is transitive or intransitive—if it's intransitive, the infinitive is often an infinitive of purpose (meaning in order to). When there is a preposition, you can usually assume the topic mentioned before the infinitive is part of a prepositional object, that is, the verb is acting in a mostly-transitive way, and the entire prepositional phrase is the object.

So what, then, of your example?

New York is a great place to live (in).

This doesn't seem to fit either: live in this sense does not take direct objects, and yet a place has no preposition.

This is because place isn't really and truly acting as a normal noun—it's more like the nominal form of the adverbial entity (some)where/here/there. Live in the sense we’re looking at here takes an adverbial phrase complement (like somewhere), but an adverbial phrase cannot be qualified by an adjective (well, it can; but its meaning changes a bit then), so a generic noun is substituted, acting as a stand-in.

If you replace place with a more regular noun that doesn't have this property, you'll see that they don't work:

*It's a great city to live.
*It’s a great street to live.

None of these two work, because you cannot *live a city/street the way you can live a place: a place is basically a noun phrase that has been semi-frozen as a pseudo-adverbial, acting like (some)where, so it takes no preposition. Cities and streets, though, do not do this, and they need to be part of a prepositional clause to be used adverbially like this. What does work is using an adverbial:

It's somewhere to live, I guess.

Naturally, if you use live as a transitive verb with a direct object, it works fine:

You only have one life to live!

And since place is still also a noun and can easily function as such, you can also use the prepositional verb live in [noun phrase] with it as the noun—which is why the double forms with and without the preposition are possible in your example.

  • I agree with most of your analysis, and you have made a strong case that (a) place is a special kind of noun. But you don't seem to explain why NY is a great place to live is possible, while ?this is a great place to live is probably dubious and *I live a great place is impossible. Or am I missing something? – Cerberus - Reinstate Monica Aug 25 '14 at 15:22
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    @Cerberus This is a great place to live is perfectly fine, and ?I live a great place is at least borderline acceptable to me. Not sure why the non-cleft (for lack of a better word) version is less acceptable than the cleft one, though. – Janus Bahs Jacquet Aug 25 '14 at 15:24
  • The cleft bit is what interests me (certain nouns being able to transitivise intransitive verbs is less remarkable to me): it happens in other languages too: NY is een mooie stad om te wonen but *ik woon een mooie stad. To me, the former kind of feels like elliptical for om in te wonen. Oh, and +1. – Cerberus - Reinstate Monica Aug 25 '14 at 15:29
  • Yes; the fact that 'I live here / there / somewhere (round here)' are grammatical but 'I live a great place' isn't argues against comparable analyses. I can't access recent articles on preposition omission, eg "Variation in preposition omission in English ellipsis" [Joanna Nykiel , 2011].

    But there is an interesting abstract from her article: 'The pattern of preposition omission in English elliptical constructions has not enjoyed much attention....'

    – Edwin Ashworth Aug 25 '14 at 16:02
  • ... And I'd have to consider 'It wasn't a great time to die' an ellipsis of 'It wasn't a great time at which to die'. (I've been known to be wrong....) – Edwin Ashworth Aug 25 '14 at 16:22
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    I've found someone who supports the preposition deletion analysis, at Grammar-Quizzes.com: I have no money to buy the food (with). /
    We have one day to do it (in). /
    I need a pen to write (with). / He has to have a place to live (in). However, it does single out home and [some] place as being in some way different.
    – Edwin Ashworth Aug 25 '14 at 18:35
  • @JanusBahsJacquet Nice post. I've a questions, I'd like to ask you:) Don't you think there's already some kind of deletion/code taking going on ... This is a great city to live in [it]. This is a great pen to write with [it]? Second question, do you think that perhaps place is moving towards being a preposition? – Araucaria - Him Aug 25 '14 at 23:40
  • @Araucaria There's quite a strong argument for considering 'home' a (fused) prepositional phrase: in 'He went home', 'home' is usually classed as an adverb and/or adverbial objective, but calling it an adverb in 'Is John home yet?' is highly contentious. Apparently, the locative/directional usage/s of 'home' derive/s from an old case-marked form (let's call it 'to-home'), which equates to the PP 'to home'; this merged with the nominative form, leaving 'home' to fulfil two distinct roles. – Edwin Ashworth Aug 26 '14 at 09:29
  • @EdwinAshworth I'd call it a preposition in both uses, myself. Compare Is John in yet? – Araucaria - Him Aug 26 '14 at 10:30
  • @Araucaria Conversely, I'd call it an adverb in both uses. Perhaps I'm overly traditionalist, but I don't consider prepositions and adverbials to be interchangeable. I don't see why “Is John home yet?” should not be seen as having an adverbial home, and I am unaware of the contention on this point that Edwin alludes to. – Janus Bahs Jacquet Aug 26 '14 at 10:46
  • @Araucaria Ah, you're an 'intransitive preposition' acolyte. I've got real problems with that analysis. 'John arrived at the lake and began to walk around' is not a reduced form of 'John arrived at the lake and began to walk around it'. – Edwin Ashworth Aug 26 '14 at 10:48
  • @Janus Are you happy with the view that adverbs can be used after 'be'? – Edwin Ashworth Aug 26 '14 at 10:50
  • @EdwinAshworth Absolutely happy. By far the easiest analysis of things like “He is here” or “It is now” is, to me, that they have an adverbial subject complement. If you take into accounts parallels from other Germanic languages where preposition/adverb pairs like in or out actually have different forms, then the adverbial forms are consistently used both with be and the same goes for home, a noun/adverb pair. – Janus Bahs Jacquet Aug 26 '14 at 11:00
  • It's probably easier to discern than you think. Is there an in or an applicable action verb to the place? It's fun/good/hard/troublesome to work there. (infinitive verb). It's a great street to drive on. (Works because the verb applies to the object. It's possible to drive on the street. It's also possible to clean the street. It's a long street to clean.) It's a great city to visit. (It's possible to visit the city.) – SrJoven Aug 26 '14 at 12:03
  • Cannot one simply live or exist or work? New York is a great place to live [one's life]. That job is a great place to work [or be employed]. That street is a great place to drive [a car]. – SrJoven Aug 26 '14 at 12:10
  • @JanusBahsJacquet Isn't 'adverbial' a functional label, not a structural/part of speech one? – Araucaria - Him Aug 26 '14 at 12:44
  • But normal adverbs can't occur as Predicative Complements of BE. I am interestedly, The city is largely. She is beautifully etc, etc. Prepositions and preposition phrases can can: He is in/in the bath/in trouble etc etc ... – Araucaria - Him Aug 26 '14 at 12:55
  • @Araucaria I tend to use it (as a noun) to refer to any part of speech that can act as an adverbial phrase in a clause—similar to adverb, but slightly less muddled and washed-out as a term. – Janus Bahs Jacquet Aug 26 '14 at 12:57
  • @Janus: Analysing say 'here' as an adverb in 'He is here' gets away from the notion of an adverb as a word saying more about the verb (action not stative): he snored loudly; he works hard. With stative and transformation verbs, adjectives are used (I am cold; he became angry). In 'He is here', 'here' can hardly be claimed to be modifying 'be': he is not 'being' 'in a here way'. Be is just the carrier, largely bleached of meaning. But I'd not classify 'here' as an adjective, either. I stick with 'locative/directional particle'. – Edwin Ashworth Aug 26 '14 at 13:46
  • there or here is an expletive. It's a dummy pronoun if you don't like expletive, but it's a word that adds no meaning but to make the sentence work. – SrJoven Aug 26 '14 at 13:55
  • @SrJoven That’s a different there altogether that’s not relevant here at all. “It’s right there!” does not use there as a dummy pronoun that adds no meaning. – Janus Bahs Jacquet Aug 26 '14 at 13:57
  • @Edwin I don’t generally accept the notion of adverbials “saying more about the verb”. That’s a characteristic of some subgroups of adverbials (the ones I might label true adverbs), but not all. Locative, directional, temporal, and other particles are adverbials to me, but not true adverbs: they can be stuck into sentence-adverbial slots (like both prepositional phrases and true adverbs); they can populate subject complement slots (like prepositional phrases); but they cannot modify verbs (like adverbs). – Janus Bahs Jacquet Aug 26 '14 at 14:15