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To me, man is the subject and it has two verbs — was and known —, making there a complement.

My teacher argued that the verb is "was known".

RegDwigнt
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    The verb is not was known. There are two clauses here: a main clause (“There was a man”) and a reduced relative clause (“[who was] known as The ‘Toe Suck Fairy’”). The main clause is existential; the was in it is not just used to form a passive and could be replaced with something like lived or existed with no fundamental change in meaning. – Janus Bahs Jacquet Sep 17 '14 at 23:23
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    Can we talk about the fact that this question refers to a Toe Suck Fairy, for a second? – Dan Bron Sep 19 '14 at 12:50
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    @DanBron Unfortunately I googled it...and it's probably just a fact best not talked about. – BrianH Sep 19 '14 at 14:21
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    My last comment got deleted (I don't know why). Anyway, here's basically what it said: The grammatical subject of an existential "there" construction is the dummy pronoun "there"; the head verb is the verb "was"; the subject "there" is considered to be the external complement; the word "known" is probably a verb; there is no clausal "object" in the matrix clause. – F.E. Sep 19 '14 at 15:57
  • I have removed the second question as it is entirely unrelated to the first, and has been asked and answered before to boot. (Executive summary: either italics or quotes work, but since you've already capitalized it, it's a proper name and as such needs neither. Your son is named John, not John or "John". The capital of Russia is Moscow, not Moscow or "Moscow". We fly to Saturn, not to Saturn or "Saturn". It is Friday, not Friday or "Friday".) – RegDwigнt Sep 19 '14 at 23:36

5 Answers5

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Leaving out the Toe Suck Fairy, an independently serious Healthy Hyphenation™ problem,
the sentence to be accounted for is

  • There was a man known as X.

This is a very simple sentence, suitable for beginning stories, displaying two syntactic processes:

  1. There-Insertion, which
    inverts the verb and the original subject, and inserts a dummy there as the new subject.
    [A man who was known as X] was. ==> There was [a man who was known as X].
    (This is, btw, the "existential" sense of be, which mostly occurs with There-Insertion.)

  2. Whiz-Deletion, which
    deletes a subject Wh-word, and an auxiliary form of be, from a relative clause
    There was a man [who was known as X]. ==> There was a man [known as X].

The there that's inserted is not a complement, though it is the subject of was.
The derived participial phrase known as X is of course a reduced relative clause.
One could go into more detail about Passive Participles here, but let's not, OK?

John Lawler
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"There" is the subject. There was what? A man known [participle adjective, not verb] as... The only verb in this sentence is "was". Your teacher is mistaken that the verb is "was known". The "man known" is a way to use an adjective here instead of saying, "There was a man who was known..."

deelea
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    So it's not a reduced relative clause? – Araucaria - Him Sep 17 '14 at 23:54
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    It is a reduced relative clause. That's what she is saying. and as @JanusBahsJacquet said in a comment. – Cyberherbalist Sep 18 '14 at 00:02
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    @Cyberherbalist, deelea, If it's a reduced relative clause then arguably known is a verb - although one in a subordinate clause - which is the opposite of what deelea is saying! PS How d'you know deelea's a girl? (deelea, I'm not saying you're not a woman btw!) – Araucaria - Him Sep 18 '14 at 00:34
  • But the "known" has nothing to do with the first "was". I have perhaps misunderstood and the teacher is not referring to the first "was" and just referring to the understood-but-not-indicated "was"? We are perhaps talking about two completely different things to do with the sentence! – deelea Sep 18 '14 at 00:36
  • @Araucaria I don't know that deelea is female, but in English it is normally a female name (Delia). I had a great aunt named Delia. Most males I know don't use female user names. "known" is a verb and it is the predicate of the relative clause "who is known as the "blah blah blah". Without the "who is" it is a reduced relative, and it is not the opposite of what deelea is saying. – Cyberherbalist Sep 18 '14 at 00:36
  • No, deelea, you have not misunderstood. You got it exactly right. – Cyberherbalist Sep 18 '14 at 00:38
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    @Cyberherbalist Hmm but deelea said *man known [participle adjective, not verb] as... The only verb in this sentence is "was"* That would seem to imply that they're saying that known is not a verb!!!! - PS I suspect you're right in your name assumptions, but I have a friend named Dee! :) – Araucaria - Him Sep 18 '14 at 00:38
  • @Araucaria you may have a point. I read it differently the first time through. If you read JanusBahsJacquet's comment to the question that actually answers the question completely. deelea seems to be saying something only partly correct. There are two clauses (one of them a reduced relative), and thus two verbs, "was" and "known", one in each clause. I also have a friend (male) named Dee, but that's because he doesn't like his given name. I suppose we could be faced here with Dee Lea, which is ambiguous as to gender. :-) – Cyberherbalist Sep 18 '14 at 00:43
  • Hi deelea, yes, sorry I think your comment appeared whilst I was writing my second one to CH. Of course you're right that the was that's extant there is not a passive auxiliary for known. – Araucaria - Him Sep 18 '14 at 00:45
  • A reduced clause is actually an adjective clause, so would it not be the case that "known" is an adjective, as I have said? – deelea Sep 18 '14 at 00:47
  • Oh, and yes, I am female. ;) – deelea Sep 18 '14 at 00:47
  • Good to know! I am not sure where you get the idea that a reduced relative clause is an adjective clause. I'm fairly sure it is not. Check this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reduced_relative_clause If you have a better source about it being adjectival, I'd like to see it. – Cyberherbalist Sep 18 '14 at 00:50
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    Well, it could be, or not. They're called adjective clauses not because they have an adjective in them but because they're modifying a noun (so I believe). On a separate note known could quite well be an adjective anyway, but it's not clear cut in the OP's example, imo, ... it kind of could go either way :) – Araucaria - Him Sep 18 '14 at 00:51
  • Here's one--and there are others: http://esl.about.com/od/grammarstructures/a/Reduced-Relative-Clauses.htm – deelea Sep 18 '14 at 00:52
  • Saying that "known" is a verb here is like saying that the word "designed" in this sentence, "There is the house designed by Frank Lloyd Wright," is a verb because it could also be written, "There is the house that was designed by Frank Lloyd Wright." – deelea Sep 18 '14 at 00:54
  • Well, being Canadian, I could only agree to that if it were written, "There is the designed-by-Frank-Lloyd-Wright house." ;) – deelea Sep 18 '14 at 01:00
  • I'd then have to concur that it's surely an adjective ;) – Araucaria - Him Sep 18 '14 at 01:02
  • I'm having a difficult time putting everything in this discussion together. What I've gathered from this is that "there" is the subject, "was" is the verb, "man" is the direct object, and "known" is a participial adjective. Am I correct? – Geoffthebunchie Sep 18 '14 at 02:16
  • Yes. You could ask your teacher about this perspective and see what the response is. You might also print off things about the reduced relative clause and it being an adjectival clause and show it to him/her. – deelea Sep 18 '14 at 03:37
  • @Geoffthebunchie Er, no. A clause can't have an object unless it (the clause) is transitive; and an existential "there" clause is not a transitive clause (the head verb is "was"). – F.E. Sep 18 '14 at 04:51
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    I think it would be beneficial to this answer if the comment train were edited, in summary, into the body. – Matt E. Эллен Sep 18 '14 at 08:04
  • I agree with F.E.: there is no object in this case because the verb is "to be". But otherwise, the rest is correct. – deelea Sep 18 '14 at 12:59
  • @MattЭллен I've given it a go! :) – Araucaria - Him Sep 19 '14 at 12:40
  • @Araucaria "There is the designed by Frank Lloyd Wright house" is awkward, but not because designed isn't an adjective. Is well-known a verb? It can be inserted into the sentence in the OP in place of known. Known is a participle adjective, or a verbal adjective, and even in a full relative clause it would not be the verb (which would likely have been "was"). Granted, in English we usually consider the entire verb phrase to be "the verb", but once the was is dropped all you're left with is a verbal adjective. – Wlerin Sep 20 '14 at 00:20
  • @Wlerin You might be right there, but it depends on what grammar you subscribe to. I'm not sure but what's the difference between a normal adjective and a verbal adjective. I wonder what is is if it's not that it's a verbal adjectives a verby kind of thing! – Araucaria - Him Sep 20 '14 at 19:05
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    @Araucaria One is formed from a verb, and can take objects, but even with its objects it functions as an adjective, not as a verb. Arguing it is a verb because it's part of a "reduced relative clause"--because you can rephrase the sentence as "a man who was known...", is too complex. When I form such a sentence, I do not delete "who was". It was never there to begin with. In fact, similar logic could be used to argue that the main verb is was known, since the sentence can also be transformed into "A man was known as..."--but I think we both agree that parsing isn't correct. – Wlerin Sep 20 '14 at 22:14
  • @Wlerin I suppose the motivation for the Whiz deletion is that there seem to be very few situations where you can have who/which plus BE in a so-called restrictive relative clauses where the X is isn't deletable - whether Be* is a continuous or passive auxiliary, or just takes an AdjP or PrepP as complement. Doesn't seem to matter whether the pronoun's animate inanimate etc either, what verb form of BE (present simple, continuous, past perfect continuous...) But have to say this isn't an area I've read round or studied much. Yuour last argument given might work the other way too... :) – Araucaria - Him Sep 23 '14 at 00:14
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    @Araucaria But is it actually being "deleted"? Or is it rather that a more succinct construction with identical meaning (a verbal adjective + objects) is being used instead? This is a rhetorical question, I don't expect it can be definitively answered. It is perhaps, as you said earlier, dependent on what grammar you subscribe to. – Wlerin Sep 24 '14 at 06:21
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There was a man known as the Toe Suck Fairy

The structure of this sentence, where Predicator is the function carried out by the verb, is as follows:

  • Subject (There), Predicator (was), Complement (a man known as the Toe Suck Fairy)

That complement is an internal complement of the verb BE. It is sometimes referred to as 'a displaced subject', but this is just doffing ones cap at the semantics, it has nothing to do with the syntax! It's not a grammatical subject in any way!

Notice that the Noun Phrase a man known as the TSF can't be considered a Direct Object here, because a Direct Object is a very specific kind of complement of the verb. In particular, Direct Objects have the thematic role of patient in relation to the verb. This means they are the thing the action's being done to. So in Bob punched me, Bob is the agent and I am the patient (the person who received the punch). So in that particular sentence me is the direct object. In the original question, nothing is being done to the TSF, so it can't be a Direct Object.

The structure of the complement Noun Phrase is a bit ambiguous. This Noun Phrase might involve a noun modified by a relative clause which has undergone Whiz-deletion. This is when the relative pronoun and some form of the verb BE have been deleted. The full underlying Noun Phrase is:

  • a man who was known as the Toe Suck Fairy.

There are a few possible structures for the relative clause here.

  1. Subject (who) [deleted], Predicator (was) [deleted], Predicative Complement (known as the TSF).

Here known is an adjective which takes a dependent preposition as, and therefore a Preposition Phrase headed by as as its complement. In turn, the complement of the preposition as is the Noun Phrase the "TSF".

  1. Subject (who) [deleted], Predicator (was known) [was deleted], Predicative Complement (as the TSF).

Here was known is the passive construction, where was is the passive auxiliary BE, and known is the past participle of the lexical verb KNOW. Again the verb know also takes a Preposition Phrase headed by as. The complement of as is, of course, the Noun Phrase the TSF.

Alternatively the Noun Phrase might be considered as simply a noun modified by a postpositive adjective phrase. Attributive Adjective Phrases usually can't occur before the noun with complements or other dependents, and instead the adjective phrase must occur postpositively after the noun in question. In this structure the head of the phrase is the Noun man. This is modified by the Adjective Phrase known as the TSF. The head of the phrase is the adjective known, taking as its complement the Preposition Phrase *as the TSF.

As the word order for the different structures is identical, it's not possible to tell which one is being used. I would probably tend towards, number 2, but who knows!!

Hope this helps!

[Note: I've labelled as the TSF a predicative complement here. Because it's only really the TSF that describes the man and not as the TSF, some people may wish to use a different term here. Huddleston & Pullum 2002 (The Cambridge Grammar of the English Language) use the term marked predicative complement.]

  • You could also consider known a pure adjective (you can modify it like an adjective, after all), in which case known is the predicative complement (which I would call a subject complement here), and as the TSF simply an equative adverbial phrase that consists of a prepositional phrase. (I’ve also yet to see a coherent argument for why a man known as the TSF cannot be considered a grammatical subject in any way—I can think of far more reasons why it is a displaced subject than why it isn’t.) – Janus Bahs Jacquet Sep 19 '14 at 12:45
  • I suppose on the adjective front that kind of depends whether you think that all postpositive AdjPs are derived from Whiz deletion or not. Jury's out for me on that. I definitely disagree about as the TSF being an adverbial if you mean it's an ajunct of the Adj phrase? The reason is that the verb know definitely takes as as a complement, not as an adjunct. This is quite easy to show through VP ellipsis or pro-form tests. The adjective would seem to be straightforwardly derived from the verb so it would appear to be a complement here as well... – Araucaria - Him Sep 19 '14 at 13:17
  • I wasn’t really referring to the Whiz-deletion, but rather to the discussion of whether the participle in a passive form is a subject complement or not. In “He is unknown”, most would say unknown is a subject complement because there’s no verb *unknow to passivise; but in “He is known”, it could be either just the passive form of the verb, or copula + subject complement. – Janus Bahs Jacquet Sep 19 '14 at 13:32
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    @JanusBahsJacquet Couldn't fit in a smiley there, word limit can make one sound a bit terse. What's the arguments for an X being subject? – Araucaria - Him Sep 19 '14 at 13:42
  • @JanusBahsJacquet I think I'd agree that in the [coplua + AdjP], the predicative complement would be a subject complement. In other words the adjective phrase is a subject complement. I think PC's just a broader term that doesn't specify which item it's predicative of. I thought my option 1 construed known as an adjective? Should I make it clearer? – Araucaria - Him Sep 19 '14 at 13:50
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    Hm. Good arguments for there as subject. I suppose the only ones I’ve happened to hear before are the verb agreement (which really is bizarre—where else does a verb agree with a complement instead of the subject?), the fact that you can switch there and X with no change in agreement, and (surprisingly, considering your #5) that you can’t coordinate VPs after there if there’s an intervening X. Maybe we just need a whole new category and accept that there is neither subject, nor complement, nor adverbial phrase, nor anything else we usually deal with, but something else. – Janus Bahs Jacquet Sep 19 '14 at 14:04
  • @JanusBahsJacquet Yes, it's all a bit of a category of its own isn't it! :) – Araucaria - Him Sep 19 '14 at 15:05
  • @Araucaria Perhaps you should provide some of the common tests that show that "there" is the grammatical subject. (Aside: I've noticed that many comments have been deleted from various head posts. Grrr!) – F.E. Sep 19 '14 at 15:08
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    I notice someone didn't like your answer! :D . . . I haven't voted yet. But be aware that I don't much like that you present as a fact that a whiz deletion MUST have occurred in your syntactic explanation for the verb rationale. Also, I'd prefer that you had provided a syntactic explanation for "object" -- so far, you've only provided a sort of a semantical one, which will probably only provide for more confusion. – F.E. Sep 19 '14 at 15:18
  • The part of this answer where @Araucaria explains the structure of the noun phrase is great! Certainly more detailed than my answer.

    In fact, @Araucaria’s answer would be great altogether if she didn’t snuff at the terminology “displaced subject”. The “semantic subject” or “displaced subject” agrees (mostly) with the finite verb (“is”) in person and number, so it has something to do with the syntax after all! At least on this criterion (and on the semantic meaning as well) it is a grammatical subject.

    Then again, on the positional criterion, “there” is a subject too.

    – Adhemar Sep 19 '14 at 15:22
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    @Araucaria See? Now do you see why I've been harping on you to show and explain why "there" is the grammatical subject? Many ELU members aren't familiar with such grammatical/syntactic tests. (One of my old posts has an excerpt from 1985 Quirk et al., I'll try and find it . . .) – F.E. Sep 19 '14 at 15:25
  • @Araucaria http://english.stackexchange.com/a/140863/57102 -- Perhaps copy the 2002 Quirk et al. excerpt from there. (Of course, there's the more extensive discussion in the 2002 CGEL, but that's rather in too much detail, perhaps.) – F.E. Sep 19 '14 at 15:29
  • Did you see this referred to wikipedia article? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subject_(grammar) -- Someone (that is you) needs to provide some accurate info on syntactic tests that help determine the grammatical subject of a clause. – F.E. Sep 19 '14 at 15:38
  • Let me hide a copy of this comment (from the head OP's post) down here (for the moment) . . . My last comment got deleted (I don't know why). Anyway, here's basically what it said: The grammatical subject of an existential "there" construction is the dummy pronoun "there"; the head verb is the verb "was"; the subject "there" is considered to be the external complement; the word "known" is probably a verb; there is no clausal "object" in the matrix clause. – F.E. Sep 19 '14 at 15:59
  • Perhaps you could also include this specific property of the subject: Uniqueness: There can be no more than one subject per clause (CGEL page 239). :) – F.E. Sep 20 '14 at 00:22
  • Oh! Oh! Also include the agreement property of the subject, since there's quite a bit of passed-on misunderstanding of it: "Agreement: Person-number inflection in the verb is determined by agreement with the subject:" (CGEL page 237). Heck, do a summary and examples with all the distinctive grammatical properties of the subject! :D . . . You can do it! We got faith in you! Come on, we be rooting for you (from the sidelines)! – F.E. Sep 20 '14 at 00:33
  • Related info: For the verb vs adjective, there's this tidbit in 2002 CGEL, page 1439 top: Complementation: Verbs and adjectives differ to some extent in their complementation, so that some expressions are admissible as VPs of verbal passives but not as AdjPs in adjectival passives, or vice versa. One very general difference is that verbs but not adjectives can take predicative complements. In other cases there are restrictions applying to specific lexemes. Compare: [40.i] "Kim was regarded as / considered [a liability]." (predicative complement) -- example [40.ii] uses "known". – F.E. Sep 20 '14 at 21:24
  • Done. http://ell.stackexchange.com/questions/34099/what-exactly-is-the-word-there-in-an-existential-construction-and-related-que – F.E. Sep 23 '14 at 01:42
  • @JanusBahsJacquet Just 'cos it relates to what we were discussing here and I accidentally deleted my comment, I'm developing an answer to a question about the functional status of there in existentials for a Q on ELL. I've only done 1 installment so far but you could find it here if you were interested (first part may be a bit grandmother/eggs, 2nd'll cover what I put in that comment and a bit more too): Existential there :) – Araucaria - Him Sep 25 '14 at 08:58
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There’s a problem.

There is a well-known man.

There is a man known as the “Toe Suck Fairy.”

These are “existential there” sentences.

“Existential there” sentences have the exceptional feature of having two subjects:

  • A positional subject: “There
  • A notional subject (or displaced subject or semantic subject or true subject): “a problem” in the first example; “a well-known man” in the second example; “a man known as the ‘Toe Suck Fairy’” in the third.

In English, the subject typically immediately precedes the finite verb in declarative clauses. In questions, order inversion occurs, and the subject immediately follows the auxiliary: “Is there a problem?” Clearly, the positional subject fits this criterion.

Semantically, the subject in a sentence in the active voice is an agent or theme performing the action expressed by the verb; or when the verb is a theme, the subject receives a property assigned to it by the predicate. The notional subject fits this criterion.

Another feature of subjects is that in a sentence, the subject generally agrees with the finite verb in person and number. Let’s make the first sentence plural:

(a) There are problems.

(b) There’s problems.

In (a), the verb agrees with the notional subject; in (b) with the positional subject.

The form (a) is correct and most commonly found; although (b) is found too (informal, maybe regional?).

Reference: I haven’t consulted the book, but the existential there section in the Wikipedia article on subject refers for a discussion of the subject status of existential there to: Douglas Biber et al., Longman grammar of spoken and written English, Essex: Pearson Education, 1999, page 944.

Note for completeness: Some grammaticians disagree with the notion that the notional subject (or displaced subject or semantic subject or true subject) is a subject too, and call it something else. Apparently, the Cambridge grammar of the English language by Rodney D. Huddleston and Geoffrey K. Pullum, 2002, has a section “Evidence that subject function is uniquely filled by dummy it and there”, on pages 241‒243. Haven’t found or read it myself.


The notional subject “a man known as the ‘Toe Suck Fairy’”:

in this noun phrase, “known as the ‘Toe Suck Fairy’” is a reduced relative clause. The phrase is a shortened form of “a man who was known as the ‘Toe Suck Fairy’”. In the relative clause, the omitted word “who” is the subject.

As Araucaria explains in another answer, there are 2 ways to analyse the relative clause. In both ways, the omitted word “who” is the subject.

  • The most natural analysis, in my opinion: The relative clause is in the passive voice, where “was known” is the predicator, which consists of the passive auxiliary “was” (which is omitted) and the past participle of the lexical verb “to know”. The preposition phrase “as the ‘Toe Suck Fairy’” is a predicative complement.
  • The alternative way: The omitted word “was”, the third person singular form in the past tense of “to be”, is the predicator-verb. The adjective phrase “known as the ‘Toe Suck Fairy’” functions as a predicative complement. It consists of the adjective “known” followed by the preposition phrase “as the ‘Toe Suck Fairy’” which functions as predicative complement (inside the larger predicative complement).

Also, should you be putting “Toe Suck Fairy” in quotations, or should you italicize them?

In this case, I would prefer putting those words in quotations. But style guides’ opinions may vary.

Adhemar
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    Nice post. Have you looked at the CGEL Huddleston and Pullulm 2002? Btw your observation re person and number there isn't correct: The government are... The problem with semantic subjects is subjectness seems to be syntactic. The thematic role of agent (similar to subject) though seems to be semantic. The "active" stipulation in your explanation's kind of essential. But there's still a problem here, it's argued. Subjects of active verbs like seem don't fit the bill for subjectness as described. Also there's no property assigned to God, for example in: There is a God ... – Araucaria - Him Sep 19 '14 at 15:24
  • Re: there’s no property assigned to “a God”, for example in: “There is a God”. That’s true. But there is an agent performing the action expressed by the verb to be. “Who is? A God is. – Adhemar Sep 19 '14 at 15:29
  • I glanced at that wikipedia article: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subject_(grammar) -- don't try to learn grammar from it. It is a poor article on determining the grammatical subject of a clause in today's English. – F.E. Sep 19 '14 at 15:36
  • Re: the notion that there may be no agreement in number between subject and verb when the subject is a collective noun, such as in “The government are…”. That phenomenon is called “synesis”, or “constructio ad sensum”: although a collective noun is grammatically singular, it may behave as if its number is plural (which it semantically is). – Adhemar Sep 19 '14 at 15:39
  • @F.E.: I learned the same three criteria for determining a subject (irrespective of language), as listed in the Wikipedia article. Do you know of other (better) criteria? Where can I find them? – Adhemar Sep 19 '14 at 15:42
  • Adhemar: I'm trying to get @Araucaria off his duff to add them into his post. But here's a post that has some of the common tests in them: http://english.stackexchange.com/a/140863/57102 -- the 1985 Quirk et al. excerpt contains some of those tests. (A more extensive set of tests on subject-hood is done in 2002 CGEL, specifically on the existential "there" construction.) – F.E. Sep 19 '14 at 15:45
  • Thank you! I knew that I’ve heard of a better term for “semantic subject” before: “notional subject”. Your reference helped me recollect that term, although Huddleston and Pullum et al. only mentioned it because they disagreed with the term. – Adhemar Sep 19 '14 at 15:55
  • @Adhemar Is that the textbook by H&P, or the 2002 reference grammar? (Aside: 2002 CGEL go into more depth in their section "Evidence that subject function is uniquely filled by dummy it and there" on pages 241-3.) – F.E. Sep 19 '14 at 15:59
  • @F.E. Don't know. I just followed your http://english.stackexchange.com/a/140863/57102 link and started reading. I added a note for completeness in my answer. – Adhemar Sep 19 '14 at 16:02
  • @F.E. Sorry: the mention “That RHS has been called a whole bunch of stuff, such as ‘true subject’, ‘notional subject’, ‘displaced subject’, etc.” was not a quote from Huddleston and Pullum, but from you after you referenced H&P. – Adhemar Sep 19 '14 at 16:09
  • @F.E. Note by the way that, as quoted in your own answer, Quirk et al. (page 1405) do call the RHS “notional subject” — and they rely on the possible, informal, subject-verb concord in person and number to call “there” a subject also. – Adhemar Sep 19 '14 at 16:15
  • @Adhemar Yes, but a "notional subject" is not a grammatical subject. When we say that something is the subject of a clause, then usually (depending on context), that means that that something is the grammatical subject of that clause. – F.E. Sep 19 '14 at 16:18
  • @F.E. Let me summarise: Wikipedia article on subject lists three criteria for “subject”-ness: [a] position (especially in English); [b] semantic meaning; [c] subject-verb accord in person and number. “There” fits [a]. The notional subject fits [b]. Both can possibly fit [c], although the accord between notional subject and verb is more common. Quirk et al. rely on [c] as well as [a] to call “there” a subject (also). So [c] is a real criterion. Now where can I find better criteria, again? – Adhemar Sep 19 '14 at 16:27
  • Adhemar: The 1985 Quirk et al. provides some tests (as seen in my excerpt). The 2002 CGEL, pages 241-3, provide a more detailed explanation, and they do it with the existential "there" construction. Note that an easy test is the subject-auxiliary inversion that occurs in something like: "There is a cat under the table" --> "Is there a cat under the table?" Notice how "is" inverted with "there", which means that "there" is the subject. Hopefully @Araucaria will do this discussion in his answer post -- and hopefully he'll also explain the difference between syntax and semantics. :) – F.E. Sep 19 '14 at 16:40
  • @Adhemar I've got off my duff a little bit as t'were I'm writing an answer post about subjects and there at the moment, that you might find interesting? It's in response to an interesting question be F.E. I've done the first installment and posted it for now. You can find it here Subjects and there. Just in case you're interested. Otherwise please ignore! :) – Araucaria - Him Sep 25 '14 at 09:10
  • @Araucaria: That’s probably the most convincing argument for the there-as-subject position that I’ve encountered. Thanks! – Adhemar Sep 26 '14 at 14:12
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There was once a king who had three daughters.

If some analyse "there" as subject or something like that, e.g. pseudo-subject they have a very queer conception of sentence structures. The subject is, of course, "a king". It is an inverted sentence structure and the adverb "there" only indicates that the subject is in post-position after the verb "was".

We might say in normal word order "A king was there once/A king lived once", but such a sentence is not the optimal thing. The main point of the story at the beginning is the king and by placing "the king" after the verb - a special position - a special weight is put on the word king and that is wanted.

Linguists try to explain such a special word order by using the complicated terms "thema and rhema/rema" (I'm not quite sure whether these are the proper terms in English.) I don't use these terms as they are more confusing and difficult to explain.

It is easier to say that the local adverb "there" can be used as an indicator of inverted word order in order to lay special stress and weight on the subject in post-position.

This special word order, typical for the beginning of fairy-tales, is used in the same way in French, Italian and German:

Il était une fois un roi qui ... C'era una volta un re che ... Es war einmal ein König, der ...

rogermue
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    So where;s the subject in sentences like There is? :) – Araucaria - Him Sep 20 '14 at 16:23
  • As I said above the subject is "king". To find the subject you ask: Who or what does/ is doing what? In sentence structures with copula-verbssuch as to be, you ask: Who or what is who/what. – rogermue Sep 20 '14 at 17:56
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    So in the sentence I'm being punched by Bob, Bob is the subject right? – Araucaria - Him Sep 20 '14 at 19:00
  • No, the subject is "I". It is a passive sentence and you ask who was punched? Answer:I. By whom? By Bob. The sentence part with by in a passive sentence is called "passive agent". It indicates by whom the action is done. – rogermue Sep 21 '14 at 01:27
  • Hold on a mo, didn't you say To find the subject you ask: Who or what does/ is doing what? Are you sure you aren't confusing subject with thematic role? – Araucaria - Him Sep 21 '14 at 01:28
  • How about It needs washing? – Araucaria - Him Sep 21 '14 at 01:30
  • @Araucaria. Who or what (what thing) needs something? Answer: It. A question I am really interested in: How come you are so unsure as to sentence parts? – rogermue Sep 21 '14 at 01:34
  • In this case a rug. Or alternatively this question needs investigating – Araucaria - Him Sep 21 '14 at 01:42
  • Want to move to chat? :) – Araucaria - Him Sep 21 '14 at 01:43
  • rogermue and @Araucaria: Here's a related article, http://chronicle.com/blogs/linguafranca/2014/09/19/being-a-subject/ -- the comments in it are, er, interesting too. – F.E. Sep 21 '14 at 03:04
  • It is too cumbersome to discuss the question of what is a subject here or in a chat. But the author also thinks "there" can be a subject (There is a fly in my soup). There he is mistaken. – rogermue Sep 21 '14 at 03:29
  • rogermue: The author of that article is *Geoffrey Pullum*. But if you're sure that he's mistaken here, in that article, . . . – F.E. Sep 21 '14 at 03:43
  • It is too cumbersome to discuss the question of what is a subject here or in a chat. But the author of the article also thinks that "there" is a subject (There is a fly in my soup). There he is mistaken. My advice: If you want to get a clear insight into syntax (sentence structure) read the chapter Syntax in a Latin grammar (about ten pages). – rogermue Sep 21 '14 at 03:44
  • You're pulling my leg, right? :) – F.E. Sep 21 '14 at 03:44
  • You'll agree that subject-auxiliary inversion involves the subject, yes? And so, try that with the existential: "There is a fly in my soup" --> "Is there a fly in my soup?" Notice how "there" inverted with "is", which demonstrates that "there" is the subject. – F.E. Sep 21 '14 at 03:47
  • Well, I have to agree with you there. :) – F.E. Sep 21 '14 at 03:48
  • The core sentence is: A fly is in my soup. – rogermue Sep 21 '14 at 03:49
  • But that isn't the sentence being discussed. – F.E. Sep 21 '14 at 03:49
  • This would be a very interesting question in general for ELU. Would you consider posting a question about the grammatical arguments for and against There or an X being the subject in There is an X? It would provide a very interesting discussion that many users would have different opinions about ... :) – Araucaria - Him Sep 22 '14 at 23:33