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In the sentence

There he remained for six years, but he still dreamt of a television career.

I have a comma before the but, which I believe follows the FANBOYS rule.

If I omit the second he, will the rule still apply? Example:

There he remained for six years , but still dreamt of a television career.

Gabriel C
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    Yes, you still want the comma even if you "delete" the second "he". But note that the standard preposition is "...he still dreamed of* a television career"* (and less and less people use the *dreamt* spelling, even though in practice that often/usually reflects the sound best). – FumbleFingers Jan 05 '15 at 19:54
  • Thank you for the advice on the preposition. Would you recommend any grammar book that explains in very extensive detail -- perhaps with dozens of examples -- all the comma rules? – Gabriel C Jan 05 '15 at 20:15
  • Oh, and if you could post your previous reply as an answer instead of a comment, I could give you a +1. – Gabriel C Jan 05 '15 at 20:33
  • As @Fumble says, in English you can dream of something or about something; dreaming with something is a direct translation from the Iberian languages (Spanish soñar con, Portuguese sonhar com, etc.) that doesn’t work in English at all, any more than you would say soñar/sonhar sobre. (Also, I’m one of those people who quite consistently uses dreamt rather than dreamed … though I would have to also be a bit prescriptivist and opt for fewer and fewer people in this case. Less and less people rubs something in my ears the wrong way.) – Janus Bahs Jacquet Jan 05 '15 at 20:41
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    Fronting with the locative makes subject deletion sound wrong. – Edwin Ashworth Jan 05 '15 at 23:49
  • @Janus: I confess I'm not much interested in commas at the best of times, but your comment raises a point I find much more interesting. As you say, you can also dream about* something. But my feeling is that "I still dream about a TV career"* carries a much stronger implication of being "literal" (sometimes that's the subject of "real" dreams I have when I'm asleep). When it's a more "figurative" usage, *of* seems much better. – FumbleFingers Jan 06 '15 at 00:05
  • @FumbleFingers I agree. About implies a literal sleep-dream much more strongly than of does, and when of is used for sleep-dreams, it often ends up sounding rather old-fashioned or poetic (“Dream a little dream of me”, anyone?). You can make about work for aspiration-dreams, but it requires a more specific context: “I dream about making it big in the music world one day”, for example, is quite unambiguous regardless of preposition. – Janus Bahs Jacquet Jan 06 '15 at 00:10
  • @FF {comment 1}{point 3} Really? – Edwin Ashworth Jan 06 '15 at 00:37
  • @Edwin: Yes, I would say so *dreamt* is a declining usage. Webster killed it off it AmE a long time ago, so set the NGrams corpus in your link to BrE (and set "smoothing" to 10 to make things clearer). Or check out the more "colloquial" usage I never dreamed I would {blah blah} – FumbleFingers Jan 06 '15 at 13:23
  • @FF The corresponding Google Ngrams for 'I dreamt of a' v 'I dreamed of a' for the British corpus they use are not all that far apart even for 2000. And Websters should stick to brewing beer. – Edwin Ashworth Jan 06 '15 at 17:08
  • Related. – tchrist Nov 24 '22 at 20:34

2 Answers2

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A rather truer explanation of the limitations of the 'rule' is to be found at Textbroker:

Commas and Coordinating Conjunctions (FANBOYS)

You've seen the commentary, but what does that mean? Coordinating conjunctions are all of the following:

For .... And .... Nor .... But .... Or .... Yet .... So

You can remember them by being FANBOYS of good grammar. If you're having trouble with comma usage each time one of these pops up, here's a trick that can make it easier. You only need a comma when each part can stand on its own. So whenever you see one of the FANBOYS, split the sentence around it.

I went to the store |and| bought eggs.

"I went to the store" is a complete sentence, but "bought eggs" is not. This sentence is fine the way it is.

I went to the store |and| I bought eggs.

"I went to the store" is a complete sentence. "I bought eggs" is also a complete sentence. The sentence should read: I went to the store, and I bought eggs.

You can do this with any of the FANBOYS.

I went to the store, |but| the chickens were on strike, |so| there were no eggs.

I went to the store |but| found no eggs.

They say women are from Venus, |yet| Mars already has Martians, |so| why do they need men too?

If you can split a sentence, you can join the full-fledged FANBOYS.

With the trend towards light punctuation nowadays, I'm sure even this attenuated 'rule' is over-prescriptive. I'd be perfectly happy with

I went to the store and I bought some eggs.

I'd insert the comma where it would sound decidedly off not to insert a pause when reading aloud.

Oh, and the FANBOYS analysis has come under heavy criticism, as this article by Jack English (?)describes.

Edwin Ashworth
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  • I can't quote any support from grammar guides, but I don't find the point made by Textbroker at all convincing. I can't really see it makes any difference at all whether the second instance of the subject pronoun is repeated or deleted in OP's example. But the implication from Textbroker is the comma should not be used in OP's second version, since *still dreamt of a television career* isn't a valid "standalone" sentence. – FumbleFingers Jan 05 '15 at 23:56
  • It's a poor example, with coordinated sentences of different structure (one fronted by a locative): subject deletion doesn't work. – Edwin Ashworth Jan 05 '15 at 23:58
  • ...the comma is usually included in for three years, but never, which so far as I'm concerned is essentially the same construction (second instance of subject is "deleted"). – FumbleFingers Jan 06 '15 at 00:00
  • I can't decide which example you're pointing to. I'm happy with these three: 'He remained there for three years, but he still dreamt of a television career.' ==> 'He remained there for three years[,] but still dreamt of a television career.' // The article pointing out some problems with the FANBOYS analysis says that only some 'authorities' prescribe the comma when two complete sentences are present (either side of the coordinator). – Edwin Ashworth Jan 06 '15 at 00:05
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    This is the first I'd ever heard of this "FANBOYS" thing, and while it coincides with my own comma/pause preferences pretty closely, I still think it's rather horrible. It's a reasonable enough preference when not carried to extremes (such as a comma between very short independent clauses) but the cutesy acronym overly reinforces the idea that it's some sort of absolute rule, rather than a style choice that tends to help one sound natural much of the time, in the moments when the words begin to swim before your proofreading eyes and "what sounds better" no longer means anything. – Jon Hanna Jan 06 '15 at 02:36
  • Edwin: I wasn't pointing to any specific example. I hadn't even realised there were only 4-5 results in that link - Google Books originally claimed "About 13,800 results" with no date range, so I restricted it to C20 to avoid confusing the issue with outdated Victorian punctuation standards. Anyway, I'm with @Jon in that I think it's a facile "rule" that misguidedly attempts to constrain what is often a matter of stylistic preference. – FumbleFingers Jan 06 '15 at 13:04
  • The only rule I'm convinced is workable is " rule needs scare-quotes when one is discussing English". – Edwin Ashworth Jan 06 '15 at 17:05
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Here is something that I found in the book The Elements of Style, by William Strunk Jr., fourth edition.

It's in Chapter I, Elementary Rules Of Usage, page 5:

4 - Place a comma before a conjunction introducing an independent clause.

[..]

When the subject is the same for both clauses and is expressed only once, a comma is useful if the connective is but. When the connective is and, the comma should be omitted if the relation between the two statements is close or immediate.

I have heard the arguments, but am still unconvinced.

Apparently, the but makes an important difference in my original example:

There he remained for six years, but still dreamt of a television career.

Gabriel C
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