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The best result of my google-search for the origins of the idiomatic phrase, “turn over in the grave” was this, from wikipedia:

One of the earliest uses is found in William Thackeray's 1849 work The History of Pendennis, where Mrs. Wapshot, upset by a man's advances on the widow of Mr. Pendennis whom the widow had "never liked," says it's "enough to make poor Mr. Pendennis turn in his grave."

Can anyone out there trace the phrase back further than 1849?

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    I'm going to hazard a guess that it somehow relates to witchcraft traditions in England. – Hot Licks Feb 09 '15 at 03:40
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    I am sure this exists in other languages as well. – Anixx Feb 09 '15 at 06:02
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    This is a good question for the American Dialect Society Listserv (ADS-L). Submit what was supplied here, and see if they can "antedate" it. – Brian Hitchcock Feb 09 '15 at 06:15
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    A little off-topic, but very important: "Roll Over Beethoven" was written by Chuck Berry. (So if "roll over" really is a variant, it's from Missouri.) – Lazzaro Campeotti Feb 09 '15 at 09:37
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    But first I'll turn yon fellow in his grave; Shakespeare, Richard III (c1592) but I don't think it means the same thing; I think it means put / roll / dump/ turf http://shakespeare.mit.edu/richardiii/full.html – Frank Feb 09 '15 at 09:39
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    Listserv is a type of mailing list, i.e. you send an email to the listserv and it redistributes it to everyone who is a subscriber. More information about this particular one seems to be available from http://www.americandialect.org/publications/ads-l-the-american-dialect-society-email-discussion-list – tripleee Feb 09 '15 at 10:12
  • +1 Thank you @tripleee, nobody tells me anything around here! –  Feb 09 '15 at 12:00

5 Answers5

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I can try to set it back much further.

The Gemara are old Jewish texts. I can not say how old, as today is the first time I heard about them, but surely from before 1842, Wikipedia gives a date of 500 CE.

In there, in Sotah 7b, it says (in the English translation by Soncino):

All the years that the Israelites were in the wilderness, Judah's bones kept turning in his coffin until Moses arose and begged mercy for him.

The original reads:

כל אותן שנים שהיו ישראל במדבר היו עצמותיו של יהודה מגולגלין בארון עד שעמד משה ובקש עליו רחמים

I don't know if the 'modern' usage goes back to this text, it might have been 'reinvented' in the 1800s.

Margana
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    500 CE sounds about right. And yes, Sotah 7b is the proper way to refer to pages. – Scimonster Feb 09 '15 at 12:26
  • Please don't take me as a killjoy: How "literally" is this translated? A translation might use a figure of speech from "modern English" to express a different Hebrew phrase with similar meaning... – Stephie Feb 09 '15 at 12:26
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    @Stephie Extremely literally. The Hebrew is "היו עצמותיו של יהודה מגולגלין בארון" -- Judah's bones would turn in the coffin. – Scimonster Feb 09 '15 at 12:29
  • Stephie: I had not thought of the possibility that the translator could have inserted the figure of speech, so you were right to mention that possibility. Scimonster has answered your question by giving the original text. I tried to edit my answer and copy Scimonster's text in, but when I copy the Hebrew in, but all I get are question marks... –  Feb 09 '15 at 12:57
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  • 99 (would that I could), You've done such great detective work @Phil. I hate to deflate, but I'm not sure the sense of 'Judah's bones turning in his coffin' (like tumbling dice) is the same as a whole 'corpse turning over in its grave.' (Going from face up to face down, that's significant symbolism). Apparently, Judah and his dead kin, being carted around the wilderness for generations, were reduced to loose, clattering bones. Then, too, there is that bit about the bones reattaching themselves. I need more input. Can any of ya'll reading this help to clarify these questions?
  • –  Feb 09 '15 at 13:25
  • I edited for clarity and sense, Pieter - intending no disrespect. "immediately [after Moses prayed], 'Hear, Lord, the voice of Judah', each limb [Of the skeleton] entered its socket [and ceased rolling about]." –  Feb 09 '15 at 13:29
  • Pakk, the translation is valid and the Rabbi's comments don't intrude on what's pertinent, so it comes down to the sense, and that I'm not qualified to judge without help from the scholars. –  Feb 09 '15 at 13:41
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    @LittleEva The sense of "גלגול" (the word used here for rolling) is used for turning over -- a wheel is a "גלגל החוזר." Jastrow (a dictionary of Talmudic Hebrew/Aramaic) renders the word as "roll," among other definitions. – Shokhet Feb 09 '15 at 14:20
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    @LittleEva The passage is explaining that he was "tossing in his grave" over distress, that he wasn't being allowed into Heaven. He had promised his father Jacob to bring back Benjamin, and if not, would "sin for all eternity" (i.e. not enter Heaven). Due to the technicality of him bringing Jacob to Egypt instead of the family back to Canaan, he never fulfilled his promise. That is why he was distressed, and "turning in his grave". When Moses prayed, God let Judah into Heaven. – Scimonster Feb 09 '15 at 14:21
  • +1 @Scimonster - so you feel it carries the same or similar sense as the more modern idiomatic usage? –  Feb 09 '15 at 14:27
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    @LittleEva Yes, that's what it seems to me. – Scimonster Feb 09 '15 at 14:28
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    @Shokhet - and you? This is important stuff, we've entered the 'sacred' now ... don't want to get this wrong. –  Feb 09 '15 at 14:30
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    Yes, @LittleEva, I think that it's the same idea in both idioms. – Shokhet Feb 09 '15 at 14:32
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    My thoughts are that I am not qualified to judge on how to interpret old Hebrew texts. I thought the question was interesting, and suspected a religious origin, and my search engine skills led me to this answer. I trust the two opinions before that this is the same idiom as is currently used, but with my limited knowledge on this I can not give you more. –  Feb 09 '15 at 14:43
  • @Shoket & Scimonster - Sotah 7b may be from 500 CE, but the references cited in footnotes are to scriptures from Gen. XXXVIII, 26 and Deut. XXXIII, 6f. These greatly antedate 500 CE, correct? –  Feb 09 '15 at 14:47
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    @LittleEva: Yes, but I don't think that these have the meaning that this gemara talks about, without the interpretation of the gemara. The cited verses say "צדקה ממני," "she is more righteous than I;" and "וזאת ליהודה" "and this is for Judah" ....there isn't much there in the way of "turning over in the grave." – Shokhet Feb 09 '15 at 14:54
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    The Gemara is a synonym for the Talmud. There are two variants - the Jerusalemite and the Babylonian (Yerushalmi and Bavli) - created by the two larger agglomeration of Jewish scholars at those times. "Those times" are after the earlier religious text (and codex) called the Mishna was finalized. So, Mishna at around 200 CE, Talmud is accumulated over the next several centuries or so, then Talmud is finalized between/around 500-600 CE. – einpoklum Feb 09 '15 at 22:26
  • I don't know why everybody is talking about Hebrew, given that the Talmud isn't written in Hebrew, it's written in Aramaic @Scimonster – barlop Jul 26 '15 at 21:01
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    @barlop It's written mostly in Aramaic, yes, but also has Hebrew sections. This is one of them. – Scimonster Jul 26 '15 at 21:17
  • I would note re margana's edit, that both those links are the soncino translation, the one that was there and the one you added. The one with all english is how soncino present it, the other one added in the edit has the hebrew thrown to the side not very parallel, though good that it has the hebrew – barlop Jul 27 '15 at 08:47