present perfect vs past perfect

Question

What's the difference between the following examples:

I noticed that the clock had stopped.

I noticed that the clock has stopped.

Some of them say that if the emphasis is laid on the subordinate clause then present perfect tense can be used, while some say if the emphasis is laid on 'noticing' then past perfect tense is to be used. How correct is this explanation?

Yes, it is. The correct version is the one I left. You can also write. I have noticed that the clock has stopped, but in speech words are contracted. — Mari-Lou A, May 10 '15 at 06:36
Some of them say that if the emphasis is laid on the subordinate clause then present perfect tense can be used. While some say if the emphasis is laid on 'noticing' then past perfect tense to be used. How correct is this explanation ? — iamRR, May 10 '15 at 06:47
That observation isn't in the question, I don't want to appear rude, but EL&U is not a forum where people discuss and give answers in comments. Good answers are self-contained. You can add an edit to your question, if you wish. Note that there is a "right" answer to these things, much depends on context and the dialect of one's English. — Mari-Lou A, May 10 '15 at 06:50
I actually think your last comment is quite interesting, it might spark some interesting answers, but beware, it is a Sunday, and people are not stuck in front of their computers (unlike me:)) You might have to wait a bit before users contribute. — Mari-Lou A, May 10 '15 at 06:54
Consider: "I found out yesterday that your son has* a new job,"* also "I heard your son has won* the lottery"*. — F.E., May 10 '15 at 15:59
What would you say about the sentences - I noticed that the clock has stopped & I learned that earthquake has caused havoc all across the country. Are these sentences grammatically correct or do I need to use 'had' in place of 'has'? — iamRR, May 10 '15 at 16:13
@F.E. -- Please do the courtesy. Kindly reply. What do you think about the question in the linkhttp://english.stackexchange.com/questions/243066/he-found-present-past-tense — iamRR, May 15 '15 at 12:08
You can also write 'I noticed that the clock has stopped.' (with the caveat Peter Shor wisely adds). The Quirk reference (F.E's comment under Greg Lee's answer) trumps personal opinion or any anonymous sources. — Edwin Ashworth, Nov 09 '15 at 12:34

score 2 · Answer 1 · edited May 18 '15 at 08:09

2

You can always use (1). You should not use (2) if the clock is no longer stopped.

edited May 18 '15 at 08:09

Araucaria - Him

47,146

answered May 10 '15 at 05:03

Peter Shor

88,407

In book I read that if the main verb is in the past tense then the verb in subordinate clause will also be in the past tense while in many news articles I find this guideline to be violated. So which is correct ? And what would you say about - President learned that the earthquake has caused havoc all across the country. Here is 'has caused' correct ? – iamRR May 10 '15 at 06:12
I await your reply. – iamRR May 10 '15 at 08:39

score 0 · Answer 2 · answered May 10 '15 at 04:37

1) I noticed that the clock had stopped.

You looked at the clock, and it was not working. This was in the past, maybe 5 seconds ago, maybe 5 years ago

2) I noticed that the clock has stopped.

You looked at the clock recently and it is not working

In sentence 1, this was sometime in the past where as in sentence 2, it was also in the past but more recent

score -1 · Answer 3 · answered May 10 '15 at 05:21

-1

For at least some English speakers, including me, your second example is ungrammatical. The sentence complement of a verb in the past tense cannot have its verb in the present tense. This rule does not apply to verbs in relative clauses -- the following are all grammatical:

I noticed the clock that stopped.
I noticed the clock that had stopped.
I noticed the clock that has stopped.
I noticed the clock that will stop.

This is because there needn't necessarily be any connection between the stopping of the clock and my noticing the clock (unlike the complement clause examples you asked about).

answered May 10 '15 at 05:21

Greg Lee

17,406

So what do you suggest ? Is "I noticed that the clock has stopped." not correct ? P.S. some of them say that if the emphasis is laid on the subordinate clause then present perfect tense can be used. While some say if the emphasis is laid on 'noticing' then past perfect tense to be used. How correct is this explanation ? – iamRR May 10 '15 at 06:09
1

The sentence "I noticed that the clock has stopped" is ungrammatical for some speakers. I don't know how it would be interpreted. It doesn't mean anything, to me. – Greg Lee May 10 '15 at 14:13
2

And what would you say about "The president learned that the earthquake has caused havoc all across the country." Here is 'has caused' correct ? – iamRR May 10 '15 at 14:20
I have no opinion about its correctness. If I encountered the sentence and I needed to figure out what was meant, I would guess that it was a mistaken attempt to express "The president has learned that the earthquake has caused havoc ..." – Greg Lee May 10 '15 at 14:31
So according to you is the sentence"The president learned that the earthquake has caused havoc all across the country." grammatically correct ? – iamRR May 10 '15 at 14:51
At the risk of repeating myself, no, it's not grammatical for me. Not every English speaker has the exact same grammar. Others find it grammatical. It's a complicated world. As to it's correctness, I have no opinion. – Greg Lee May 10 '15 at 15:09
2

That's where the confusion breeds. Some say its grammatical while some say its not. Sir, what would be your advise on it. Because in many noted news articles I find that present perfect tense is used even when the verb in the main clause is in past tense. One query more- Is the sentence 'He said that he has painted the door.' grammatically correct ? – iamRR May 10 '15 at 15:24
I don't find this to be grammatical: "He said that he has painted the door." However, without the "that", it sounds much better. I don't know why. – Greg Lee May 10 '15 at 15:39
@GregLee I don't understand why your examples have relative clauses in them when the OP's don't? – Araucaria - Him May 18 '15 at 08:11
@Araucaria, I gave examples with relative clauses to illustrate the difference between relative clauses and the complements the OP asked about. I said "This rule does not apply to verbs in relative clauses." – Greg Lee May 18 '15 at 11:31
@GregLee "The sentence complement of a verb in the past tense cannot have its verb in the present tense." <== Does your rule apply to examples like these: "I *found* out yesterday that your son *has* a new job," and "I *heard* your son *has won* the lottery"? – F.E. May 18 '15 at 17:46
@F.E., yes, it does. And by the way, I think I finally figured out how the dialect that accepts such examples works. I gave the analysis in answer to another, similar question. The speaker of the sentence means to assert (or declare) the complement sentence rather than what appears to be the main clause -- then the tense need not agree. Sometimes tag questions can be used to provide evidence that the complement sentence is asserted. "I heard your son has won the lottery, hasn't he?" – Greg Lee May 18 '15 at 17:52
1

@GregLee Your rationale that the speaker might be using the present-tense to assert what is in that complement S sounds reasonable. But that type of usage is probably part of today's standard English. Consider the example "Their teacher had told them that the earth moves around the sun" which is from the 1985 Quirk et al. (A Comprehensive Grammar of the English Language, section 14.31, page 1027). -- In general, (when the preconditions are fulfilled) backshift is often optional; though there are some exceptions, and also some things might make it preferable or not preferable. – F.E. May 18 '15 at 18:08
@GregLee There's some related info in the 2002 reference grammar by Huddleston and Pullum (et al.), The Cambridge Grammar of the English Language, pages 155-8, for the subsection Obligatory vs optional backshifting. – F.E. May 18 '15 at 18:23

present perfect vs past perfect

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