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If "her" is objective and "she" is subjective, why do we say:

'Who is she?'

instead of:

'Who is her?'

apart from the latter sounding a bit strange?

For instance:

'That car belongs to her.'

vs.

'She has a nice car.'

Is the second sentence, 'Who is her?', actually grammatical and is there a situation where it is appropriate? (Or am I just plain wrong in thinking that "who" is the subject in both questions?)

Dog Lover
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    I'm voting to close this question as off-topic because it belongs on ell.stackexchange.com – Mitch Jun 16 '15 at 01:16
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    @Mitch this is a common misunderstanding among native speakers, which I suspect Dog Lover is. – phoog Jun 16 '15 at 01:23
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    +1, good question! Identifying the subject can sometimes be a bit unclear like, maybe. Copular clauses can often be messy to figure out, grammar-wise. :) – F.E. Jun 16 '15 at 07:09
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    So, in "Who is who?" which would be the subject, the first "who" or the second "who"? Or should that example have been "Who is whom?"? Or rather should it be "Whom is who?"? Er, now I'm all confused and all. Does anyone know? :) – F.E. Jun 16 '15 at 07:17
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    This is an interesting sort of question, e.g. "Who (there) is me?" can be okay in a specific context and perhaps also "Who (there) would be me?". As to "Who (there) is her?" and "Who (there) would be her?", they too seem to be okay in a similar context (which one of them in the picture is Aunt Sally?). Hmm. :) -- And so, you probably ought to provide a specific context for your question. – F.E. Jun 17 '15 at 20:03
  • @mitch if you read the answers here, you'll see that the native speakers and others are struggling to work out what the subject is! And I say, it ain't that straightforward. Can you explain how they should be able to tell? – Araucaria - Him Jun 17 '15 at 23:36
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    This is trivial inversion, a matter of general reference, for the finite verb always agrees with its subject: Who am* I? What are they? What were they? How is she? How was she? Where art thou?* End of boring story. – tchrist Jun 17 '15 at 23:48
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    @Mitch and can you tell them/me why? – Araucaria - Him Jun 17 '15 at 23:48
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    @tchrist That's a silly to say, because who or what can be notionally either singular or plural, and when they occur as either subject or complement of BE they will nearly always be the same as the other phrase. So in "They're the robbers", "Who are the robbers?", the word who is the subject and takes plural verb agreement. In "The robbers are those guys over there", "The robbers are who?" the subject is "The robbers" and the verb takes plural agreement. In "The robbers are those guys over there", ""Who are the robbers?" the subject is "The robbers" - again plural verb. – Araucaria - Him Jun 18 '15 at 00:12
  • @Araucaria Yes, it seems like context is going to be important here, as to determining what the subject is in something like "Who are the robbers?" Especially since a version could sometimes be an echo-question in some situations. :) – F.E. Jun 18 '15 at 00:32
  • @Araucaria it's a great question and has great answers.... for ELL. It's a very basic grammar question. – Mitch Jun 18 '15 at 01:01
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    I know I'm quite interested in seeing a well thought out answer, one that is easy to comprehend and that is also, er, correct. I expect that it would probably be a long answer post. :) – F.E. Jun 18 '15 at 01:04
  • @F.E. A question like “Who(What/Where/When/Why/How) am* I?”* is enough to prove the subject cannot be the wh-question word, since we use am uniquely in the first-person singular and nowhere else. By focusing on person not number, both casuistry and confusion are dispelled: wh-question words never shift in person but here the verb obligatorily shifts in person based on what person follows it. Therefore, the wh-question word cannot here be the subject or else we would not have been forced to use *am* when the pronoun following the verb is I. And yet we are, so that’s that. – tchrist Jun 18 '15 at 02:26
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    @tchrist But we can have which one's me?, or which is me?; which is you?, which is basically what I've already said. – Araucaria - Him Jun 18 '15 at 16:19
  • @Mitch Hold on a sec, old bean. Surely you don't mean that? The top-rated answer here flatly contradicts what tchrist says in his comments above (whilst I don't agree that it's always straightforward to say what the subject is in wh- questions, he's correct about the most usual interpretation for such a sentence out of context). So who's right from your point of view? The very good answer, or tchrist? And are you saying that one of the two needs to go to ELL!? ;-) – Araucaria - Him Jun 19 '15 at 14:53
  • @Araucaria I'm not sure what it is that you say I surely don't mean. All I'm saying is that the OP is about a phenomenon of English that belongs on ELL, not ELU. A lot of issues in the answer and in the comments are ELU relevant. But the OP stands as more appropriate for ELL. It's the same level of questions as " Is it 'he come' or 'he comes'?". Of course there's interesting nuance, but still, for ELL. – Mitch Jun 19 '15 at 15:19
  • @Mitch It's not nuances that the top rated question and tchrist are diametrically opposed about. Tchrist says that she is the subject of the verb. Phoog says that who is the subject of the verb, and she is the complement of the verb. That's not a nuance. That's a flat out contradiction. So outside of the rarer readings, either tchrist or Phoog are wrong. So, I am genuinely interested in which one you think is completely wrong? – Araucaria - Him Jun 19 '15 at 15:36
  • @Araucaria I'm not trying to figure out the content. I'm saying this whole discussion should be at ELL. If I were a regular at ELL, I might give my opinion there. – Mitch Jun 19 '15 at 15:40
  • @Mitch Well, hmm, it seems to me that if two native speakers, both professionals, both working with languages cannot work it out then it's not an ELL discussion. If we can't work it out or talk it through, and we're already discussing predicate nominatives and so forth, how are relevant posts going to be useful on ELL? – Araucaria - Him Jun 19 '15 at 15:44
  • @Araucaria There's not room for discussion on ELL? The top rated question (3 is not particularly popular you know) starts off with "The grammar I was taught in 4th grade ..." which corroborates the basic nature of this question. Whatever people's credentials are (I doubt there are many EFL teachers on ELL or ELU), it's a basic question. the "a or an" question is extremely popular on ELU; it still should be on ELL. – Mitch Jun 19 '15 at 15:56
  • @Mitch It was good enough for you to call it a very good answer! Even though it's wrong. So it must have been persuasive enough to persuade you it was right? Right? – Araucaria - Him Jun 19 '15 at 16:25
  • @Araucaria non sequitur. Also, things can be good and wrong at the same time. – Mitch Jun 19 '15 at 16:35
  • @Mitch Ok, reckon I'm not gonna persuade you, but I am going to have one last try. In Who was man of the match? the subject is who. In Who was she? the subject is (usually) she. Given that both start with Who was and have a noun or pronoun for the third word, why do they have different subjects? That does not seem to be such a straightforward question. – Araucaria - Him Jun 19 '15 at 16:37
  • @Mitch Good, learned answers which are wrong are usually an indication that it's worth addressing the question, imo. ELL is really for people learning to speak (or teach) English. It's not really the place for native speakers to discuss abstract grammar.... ok I won't try and persuade you any more though ... :( – Araucaria - Him Jun 19 '15 at 16:52
  • @Araucaria So, gee, what could be the correct answer to the OP's question, I wonder? Hmm. Could the correct answer even fit in one comment block? Where is one expected to go to get correct answers to grammar questions? :D . . . – F.E. Jun 19 '15 at 17:03
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    @Araucaria So, in "Who* was treasurer?", the subject is "Who"? And in "Who is she?"*, the subject is usually "she"? This is interesting! Surely the internet has the answers that can help us to understand what is going on here! Maybe there's a new wikipedia page? I wonder what the grammar rules are for this? Maybe there's something in Latin grammar? Maybe there's a SE grammar site? Hmm . . . :D – F.E. Jun 19 '15 at 17:30
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    @Araucaria Hey! Maybe this thread is a duplicate of some other thread in EL&U? Gee, wonder what their answers will say . . . sorry, spilled my coffee over the keyboard . . . :D – F.E. Jun 19 '15 at 17:37
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    @F.E. Consider "Who was the first voter?". That seems pretty difficult to decide. One indication is that both of the following embedded questions seem ok: "I wonder who was the first voter?" and "I wonder who the first voter was?". Given they seem equally likely, it seems rather difficult to tell ... Hold on a mo, mustn't talk about grammar here! I'm off ... – Araucaria - Him Jun 19 '15 at 17:56
  • Comments are not for extended discussion; this conversation has been moved to chat. – Yoichi Oishi Jun 20 '15 at 01:22

4 Answers4

4

It is incorrect that "who" is the subject, "she" is still the subject. If it wasn't a question it would be "She is who". Because it's a question it is inverted.

Wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_grammar#Questions

Austin
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    But "who" is undeniably the subject of the question "who ate the cookie?" It's more about the verb than the fact that it is a question. – phoog Jun 16 '15 at 01:32
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    If you still think it could be "she is whom", you have missed the point entirely. Re-read phoog's answer. – Brian Hitchcock Jun 16 '15 at 05:10
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    @phoog If the question was "where is she", she would be the subject. How is "who is she" different? – Austin Jun 16 '15 at 05:16
  • @Austin, in "who is she" both pronouns are in the subject case. There is no object, only a predicate nominative. If "who" were the object, it would have to be "whom." But it isn't. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Predicate_(grammar)#Predicates_in_traditional_grammar – phoog Jun 16 '15 at 05:41
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    @phoog I still don't see how that makes "who" the subject. If you wanted to answer the question in the OP with "She is Mary", "she" would be the subject that "is" links to "Mary", the predicate nominative. – Austin Jun 16 '15 at 06:43
  • @Austin It does not much matter whether "who" or "she" is the subject (does it matter which element is the subject in "The Queen is Elizabeth" or "Elizabeth is the Queen"?); the point is that both parts of the sentence require subject case. Furthermore, the point is that both elements require subject case because the verb is "is." Therefore, the important factor is the verb, not the identity of the subject or the fact that the sentence is a question. – phoog Jun 16 '15 at 09:43
  • @DogLover no, it should not be "she is whom," nor should it be "whom is she"? – phoog Jun 16 '15 at 09:45
  • @phoog You're right. Misjudgement on my part. – Dog Lover Jun 16 '15 at 10:16
  • @phoog I came to the same conclusion as I fell asleep last night. Your answer taught me more grammar in the last day than I learned in the last year. – Austin Jun 16 '15 at 19:43
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    @phoog A so-called predicate nominative is a relatively rare and affected phenomenon. That's why when someone asks who's that? we usually don't say It is I! A Predicate nominative is not a rule as such. However, in the normal reading of the sentence the subject would be she and the pronoun in the predicate would be who. – Araucaria - Him Jun 17 '15 at 21:19
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    @phoog And you can test for a predicate nominative by substituting in an accusative (unless it's a wh- interrogative word, where we don't tend to use whom in many constructions). Now if you substitute her in here, you get Who is her? . Now that's not a normal question, unless it's an echo question: A: "That is her". B."Sorry, who is her?*" – Araucaria - Him Jun 17 '15 at 21:30
  • @DogLover Phoog may or may not be right about that - but not for any reasons that are given on this page ... You are right to question whether who is the subject here. In the normal reading of the sentence, it isn't. – Araucaria - Him Jun 17 '15 at 23:23
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The grammar I was taught in 4th grade says that "is" does not take an object, but rather a predicate nominative (PN, as in "she is a doctor") or predicate adjective (PA, as in "she is friendly").

Predicate nominatives take the subject case, not the object case. This rule, of course, results in the question that is more common than "why don't we say, 'who is her'?", which is whether we should say "it is I" or "it is me"? The grammatical pedant will typically advocate "it is I", though I don't think many would say with a straight face, being asked whether a group of people is the same group they saw the night before, "yes, that's they."

In light of the comments and other answers, it seems a good idea to refer to some sources. Wikipedia(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Predicate_(grammar)#Predicates_in_traditional_grammar):

A predicative nominal is a noun phrase that functions as the main predicate of a sentence, such as George III is the king of England, the king of England being the predicative nominal. The subject and predicative nominal must be connected by a linking verb, also called a copula. A predicative adjective is an adjective that functions as a predicate, such as Ivano is attractive, attractive being the predicative adjective. The subject and predicative adjective must also be connected by a copula.

This leads one to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linking_verb:

In traditional grammars and guide books, the term linking verb is used to refer to verbs that describe the subject or link the subject to some complement such as a predicate adjective or predicate noun. This includes copulas such as the English verb be and its various forms, as well as verbs of perception such as look, sound, or taste and some other verbs that describe the subject, such as seem, become, or remain. In addition to predicate adjectives and predicate nouns, English allows for predicate prepositional phrases as well: John is behind the cocktail cabinet.

The following sentences include linking verbs.

  • Roses are red.
  • The detective felt sick.
  • The soup tasted weird.
  • Frankenstein resembles a zombie.

This explains why one should say "that music sounded awful" rather than "that music sounded awfully." Or, as I once heard someone say, or words to this effect (I sadly cannot find it online):

A wet dog smells well, but a wet dog smells bad.

Contrast the definition of "object" (from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Object_(grammar)):

Traditional grammar defines the object in a sentence as the entity that is acted upon by the subject.[1] There is thus a primary distinction between subjects and objects that is understood in terms of the action expressed by the verb, e.g. Tom studies grammar - Tom is the subject and grammar is the object.

Linking verbs such as "to be" do not act on one of the two nouns in a simple sentence. Rather, they describe an existential relationship between them.

Community
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phoog
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QUESTION When answering the telephone, which sentence is correct; "This is he" or "This is him."? I always say "This is him" and my wife always "corrects" me. Thank you for your time.

SOURCE OF QUESTION & DATE OF RESPONSE Sewell, New Jersey Tuesday, June 23, 1998

GRAMMAR'S RESPONSE The correct form of that response (sorry about this) is "This is he." You've got a simple Linking Verb in that sentence, and what follows the verb should be a predicate nominative -- that is, in the nominative case; that is, "he." Informally, we could get away with "This is him," but I wouldn't recommend it. To avoid your wife's corrections, you could say "Speaking" or "This is Fred" -- substituting your name for Fred's (unless you're avoiding telemarketers, then go ahead and use Fred's name).

Source: http://grammar.ccc.commnet.edu/grammar/grammarlogs/grammarlogs150.htm

rogermue
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  • I haven't down voted this answer, but this answer links to bad info on the internet. Compare its info to a vetted grammar source such as the 2002 reference grammar, H&P's CGEL (page 459, [9]). – F.E. Jun 16 '15 at 18:16
  • I would not say bad info. But in some respect you are right , in spoken language in some situations forms such as Who is him? /It is him are used and even tolerated. What I said refers to written standard language and was aimed at learners. – rogermue Jun 16 '15 at 18:37
  • H&P CGEL is mainly about the written form of today's standard English. They consider *"This is him / These are them"* ([9.iv.b]) as grammatical. This what they say about the nominative version "This is he / These are they" ([9.iv.a]) : "The other main construction where a nominative is quite commonly found, again in formal style, is with a demonstrative as subject, as in [iv]." – F.E. Jun 16 '15 at 18:44
  • I'm not in a position to contradict CGEL in this point. I can only say in fifty years I have not found Who is him? - or It is him in a novel. BNC has not one entry for Who is him? And for It is him BNC has as few as 13 entries. – rogermue Jun 16 '15 at 18:59
  • Consider: "This one here is me* at the age of 12."* <== This is example [9.vi.b] used in a context where we are looking at an old photograph. And they say that the nominative version [9.vi.a] is ungrammatical: "This one here is I* at the age of 12."* – F.E. Jun 16 '15 at 19:05
  • I'm not in a position to contradict CGEL in this point. I can only say in fifty years I have not found Who is him? - or It is him in a novel. BNC has not one entry for Who is him? And for It is him BNC has as few as 13 meagre entries. When CGEL says it is grammatical I would say this is confusion. I guess it would be better to say used in spoken language and occasionally found in written form, so that it should be tolerated as a second way of expression , even if it is contradictory to regular grammar structures. And it would be good if H&P had a look at neighbouring languages sometimes. – rogermue Jun 16 '15 at 19:22
  • Grammaticality is defined by usage, which trumps earlier usage and consistent patterns. – Edwin Ashworth Jun 17 '15 at 22:47
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After "Who is ...?" follows a subject case (nominative). If you have no feeling for it you have simply to learn it.

In the following text I mark subject case (nominative) with 1 behind the word.

1 She1 is not a student1.

2 She1 is the teacher1.

3 Who1 is she1?

If after a form of to be follows a noun it is subject case (nominative).

Edit: I might guess where your uncertainty comes from. There are sentences like

  • Who is it? - Answer: It's me.
  • Who will do it? You? - Answer: Me!? No!

Here "me" looks like an object case. But it is none. The explanations of such forms are very divergent. And often dubious. I can only give my view: French has the personal pronoun je (I), that is so short and weak that it is used only if a verb form follows. Without a verb French uses a clearer form that can be stressed: moi. I suppose this use of a strong form (moi), very similar to English me, has somehow influenced English.

So we should say English has got two forms:I and me. I is the normal form. "me" is the strong or emphatic form, used only in certain positions, without a verb. And it is no object case, it is a subject case, meaning "my person", in Latin mea persona. This mea gave French moi.

rogermue
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    I don't mind the minus marks, but it would be interesting to know what objections are raised against my post. I don't see anything objectionable as Who is him is a no correct English, though it may be used by some speakers. – rogermue Jun 16 '15 at 16:54
  • A serious question:: I think I can assume that you would find acceptable the version "Who (there) is she?" when the speaker is looking at a picture; but what about something like "Who (there) would be she?" And what would you think about the version with "her", "Who (there) would be her?", in that instance? – F.E. Jun 18 '15 at 01:18
  • @F.E. Actually, with Who is . . .? you have to switch the verb to match not merely number but indeed the person of the pronoun following — if there is one. Sometimes there isn’t, and these are not the same sort of sentence as when there is. Who is* coming for dinner?* is quite a different scenario compared with the one we find in Who am* I to say?* Notice the subject governs which particular conjugation of be we must choose. None of this is optional; it’s how the language works. You cannot swap am for is in examples like “I don’t know who I am. Who am* I really?”* – tchrist Jun 18 '15 at 02:44