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I found this sentence in http://www.thefreedictionary.com/lesser

“He was feared by other, lesser, men.”

is this sentence correct in grammar?

I can't make sense out of it. I suppose it should be "He was feared by other lesser men". is my opinion correct? thank you

JHCL
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Tim
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    You may find our sister site, English Language Learners helpful. This is a basic punctuation question. – WS2 Oct 22 '15 at 07:45
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    Drop the second comma and it's fine. – Hot Licks Oct 22 '15 at 07:53
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    @HotLicks - I've just commented under an answer, but I'll ask you as well: if you were saying this aloud, would you not pause, as if for a comma, after "lesser"? – JHCL Oct 22 '15 at 08:18
  • @JHCL - Possibly. Whether it should be treated as a list or as if "lesser" is parenthetical is a judgment call. But I tend to go with the "When in doubt, leave it out" school of comma placement. – Hot Licks Oct 22 '15 at 08:21
  • @HotLicks - Fair enough, but in my opinion, this isn't a list. While both adjectives are referring to the same men, "lesser" is qualifying (explaining) the nature of the "otherness". – JHCL Oct 22 '15 at 08:26
  • In order to drop the second comma, other should be "others" as a plural form of other. –  Oct 22 '15 at 08:27
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    @Rathony - If you regard it as a list of attributes ("other, lesser" with only one comma) then it words just fine as it stands. – Hot Licks Oct 22 '15 at 08:30
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    If you think it's a list, try changing the order and see if the meaning changes. – JHCL Oct 22 '15 at 08:32
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    Since no one has said it yet, I will: this is about punctuation, which is not grammar. A sentence can be perfectly punctuated and still be ungrammatical; it can be completely grammatical but utterly mispunctuated; or (as here) it can be both grammatical and acceptably punctuated. It can of course also be both ungrammatical and badly punctuated. – Janus Bahs Jacquet Oct 22 '15 at 16:47
  • @JanusBahsJacquet - But whether a sentence is grammatical or not may depend on the roles assigned to the various constituent clauses, and punctuation often controls this. – Hot Licks Oct 22 '15 at 17:46
  • @HotLicks Well, it helps us as readers to correctly identify what is intended to play which role. Absent pauses and intonation (or their written counterparts, punctuation), some sentences can be difficult or even impossible to parse. That doesn't make them ungrammatical, though, just unparseable. – Janus Bahs Jacquet Oct 22 '15 at 17:56
  • @JanusBahsJacquet - It's not "grammatical" if it has no valid parse. – Hot Licks Oct 22 '15 at 17:57
  • “He was feared by other men.” “He was feared by lesser men.”

    These work because the adjectives modify the noun. Lesser does not modify other. It should have one comma. The slight pause after lesser is for emphasis.

    “He was feared by other, lesser men.”

     – Entbark Oct 22 '15 at 18:44
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    @JHCL The order matters, but only as a matter of style, not meaning. "Lesser" implies "other". "Other, lesser men" are men who are other than he and lesser than he; "lesser, other men" are men who are lesser than he and other than he. Both phrases identify the same men, but there is more dramatic flair in "other, lesser" than in the anticlimactic "lesser, other". If that's not convincing, complain to the next handsome, dark, tall stranger that you meet. – David K Oct 22 '15 at 19:47
  • I disagree with the suggestion to drop the second comma. It's very important. 'Other, lesser men' reads quite differently to me from 'other, lesser, men'. The comma is giving men two independent attributes. – user207421 Oct 22 '15 at 23:05
  • "He was feared by other, lesser, men" is perfectly grammatical English. As opposed to "Is this sentence correct in grammar?", which is ungrammatical and makes no sense. Your command of the language is not sufficient to be questioning a dictionary. At this point you're best advised to believe it. It's a dictionary. You won't believe an actual dictionary, but you will believe a random person off the Internet? Strange priorities. – RegDwigнt Oct 23 '15 at 14:42
  • Also, following up on Janus' comment, here's an explanation of what grammar means. Grammatically, the sentence is equally correct with any number of commas. From zero to infinite. "He, was fe,ared by,,,, ot,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,her les,ser me,,,n.” is grammatically impeccable. – RegDwigнt Oct 23 '15 at 14:47

7 Answers7

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In your sentence He was feared by other lesser men, he is a 'lesser man' and other men, who are also 'lesser men', fear him. In the dictionary sentence He was feared by other, lesser, men, the parenthetical commas separate out the 'lesser' making it clear that he is feared by other men, who are lesser.

See section 4 here for use of parenthetical commas.

Roaring Fish
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  • I agree with this, because this is how I would say the sentence. – JHCL Oct 22 '15 at 08:18
  • @Roaring Fish: How is this different from what I wrote? – Ricky Oct 22 '15 at 08:24
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    Ricky... look at the time stamps. I was two minutes ahead of you. Plus I provided a link to more information... – Roaring Fish Oct 22 '15 at 08:26
  • Isn't the second comma unnecessary? – user13267 Oct 22 '15 at 09:19
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    @RoaringFish: Apology accepted. – Ricky Oct 22 '15 at 09:40
  • @user13267: without the second comma you have the situation as in Elliot G's answer. It's common to use (and fairly common to require) commas to separate lists of adjectives, as for example "a fast, red car" meaning the same as "a fast red car". The second comma rules out this possible interpretation of the sentence and so it eliminates an ambiguity. Since commas are being used here parenthetically, they really should come in pairs. – Steve Jessop Oct 22 '15 at 11:00
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    Not sure these are parenthetical commas. Section 8 of the document you link to seems to be a better match for this case. "* As a general rule, if you can put the word 'and' or 'or' between the adjectives, then the comma is appropriate. If you cannot, the comma should be omitted. ". I'd say the original sentence can be equivalent to "He was feared by other and lesser men*" (although the original style is probably better). – Bruno Oct 22 '15 at 12:30
  • @Bruno ~ I have gone with parenthetical because the 'lesser' can be removed without destroying the sentence: he was feared by other men. I am not swayed by the list of adjectives approach as the big, black car requires the car to be big and black which is fine. In the same way, other, lesser men would require the men to be other and lesser, which is not so fine. – Roaring Fish Oct 22 '15 at 13:49
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    Lesser is clearly being used in comparison to himself: he is not a lesser man, the other men who hated him, they were the ones who were lesser (than he). – KRyan Oct 22 '15 at 19:07
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    He was feared by other lesser pandas. They proceeded to shoot him and leave. – Tobia Tesan Oct 22 '15 at 19:33
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    @RoaringFish The men are both other and lesser. None of them is the same man, and none is equal or greater to him. – David K Oct 22 '15 at 19:57
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It is grammatically correct.

With the commas, the sentence means that men who were lesser than "He" were afraid of him.

Without the comma, it would mean that -

  1. There were men and lesser men (two categories).
  2. "He" belonged in the second category (he was one of the lesser men).
  3. The other lesser men (lesser men just like himself) were afraid of him.

Et voila.

Ricky
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I would write "he was feared by other, lesser men." It is standard to use a comma to separate two adjectives pertaining to the same thing. I believe the second comma is unnecessary.

pancini
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    Hmm. If you were reading this aloud, would you not take a comma-like pause after lesser? – JHCL Oct 22 '15 at 08:14
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    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apposition – Davor Oct 22 '15 at 11:50
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    @Davor I don't think that's an apposition, "lesser" is certainly not an apposition pertaining to "other". Rather, it's about enumerating two adjectives pertaining to "men". – Bruno Oct 22 '15 at 12:22
  • @Bruno I admit that I can see it going both way now but I'm not totally convinced that other and lesser here couldn't be used interchangeable. It would depend on the speaker's intention, really. But you are most probably right. – Davor Oct 22 '15 at 12:40
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    @JHCL: No, I wouldn't. The gap between "other" and "lesser" would be significantly longer than the gap between "lesser" and "men," at least for me. – Kevin Oct 22 '15 at 14:29
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    You're right that the second comma is unnecessary in that both versions of the sentence are grammatically correct. However, the word lesser functions differently in the two sentences. With both commas, the word "lesser" is a parenthetical expression. With only one comma, the words "other, lesser" are two adjectives with the same grammatical function. – Kevin Oct 22 '15 at 22:58
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In terms of the usual rules of grammar, the second comma is unnecessary, but that second comma is what makes this an elegant, powerful sentence. The second comma introduces weight to the word "lesser" by conveying how the word would be spoken. If an actor, speaking the words from a screenplay, said, "He was feared by other, lesser men," the line would come out flat. The actor reading "He was feared by other, lesser, men," would know to speak the word "lessor" with a lower voice, giving it more weight. Parentheses would achieve something like the same effect, but that second comma does it more powerfully.

user143945
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  • To my ear, the second comma sounds cumbersome and also deemphasizes the word "lesser". As noted in other answers, when there are two commas they are "parenthetical" commas, implying that we are talking about other men who (by the way) happened to be lesser. The fact that the other men are "lesser" is expressed more powerfully without the comma, I think. – David K Oct 22 '15 at 19:17
  • Hey user. Welcome to the site. Can I suggest you add some linebreaks to your answer? – dwjohnston Oct 23 '15 at 01:57
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Surely 'lesser' qualifies 'other' so the commas are acting as a parenthesis? Not all other men feared him, just those of the others who were lesser. The meaning is the same as: 'He was feared by other (lesser) men.'

DavidT
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He was feared by {other, lesser,} men. Logic demands the commas, but did the author really want to say that all other men were lesser than he?

Frank Crump
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  • Sorry, meant to say, He was feared by lesser men. – Frank Crump Oct 22 '15 at 16:00
  • If you put something wrong in your answer, you can edit the answer, rather than adding a comment. Comments are not supposed to be considered when voting, and may be deleted without notice. – DCShannon Oct 22 '15 at 22:49
  • This isn't an answer. – dwjohnston Oct 22 '15 at 22:49
  • @dwjohnston I think the first sentence is supposed to be an answer. It's indicating how the commas break the words from the rest of the sentence. It's not a good answer, but it's an answer. The second sentence should have been a comment, but he doesn't have enough rep to comment on other people's posts. – DCShannon Oct 22 '15 at 22:52
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It is both a punctuation question (where and how do I use or place the commas?), and a grammar question, that deals with the meaning imparted from the principles and usage of the language. I see already laid out the manner in which the grammar and punctuation can be used to impart primarily one of two meanings. The choice that remains is what is intended by the statement; this seems largely to be a choice of whether the man in question, "He," is a lesser man -- which choice belongs to the author.

So it is to the author to choose and to impart its intention in writing the statement. Writers often have bounds or requirements in what they write, but in the creation of their work, they must express what they intend to express: please make a choice and then the pen moves on....

Old Uncle Ho
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    Welcome! You make some points, but this does not answer the question. – jejorda2 Oct 22 '15 at 18:20
  • @jejorda2 -- the answer too implicitely contained within my remarks, for which I beg your pardon. Herewith a choice must be made and in its conception the truth of the grammar shall be known. It shall be known by the author's intention: does he speak of or does he join the ranks of lesser men? Should he find himself to be of their number, then not a single nor a double comma should be used between the words of qualification, other and lesser. Thus, "other lesser men." would include him in their number. – Old Uncle Ho Oct 23 '15 at 13:57