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In Dutch language we use the expression "tot en met" to signify a quantity between two measures including the last measure. So, for instance, the following:

woensdag 22 juni tot en met vrijdag 24 juni

... would mean:

Wednesday the 22nd of June until and including Friday the 24th of June, whereas:

woensdag 22 juni tot vrijdag 24 juni

... would mean:

Wednesday the 22nd of June until but not including Friday the 24th of June

I'm unsure of what the correct expression would be in English language to imply the former.

Is either until or maybe through enough perhaps? Or is there some other term which expresses this more correctly?

RegDwigнt
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Decent Dabbler
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6 Answers6

17

"Up to and including" is the standard phrase.

Marcin
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    I think "up to and including" is standard in the UK; "through" (or "thru"!) in the US. Other English-speaking countries, I don't know. – slim Dec 19 '11 at 15:47
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    @slim: Through is ambiguous - see the disagreement in comments on rintaun's answer. – Marcin Dec 19 '11 at 16:23
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    I am from the northeast US, and "up to and including" is probably about equally as common as "through" and is often used to resolve ambiguity. – Kit Z. Fox Dec 19 '11 at 17:13
9

I would simply state "from Wednesday to Friday, inclusive".

bracho monacho
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  • @peter, yes, it's bizarre 6 people up-voted the wrong answer above! – Fattie Jun 22 '11 at 17:34
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    I have heard my Dutch colleagues say "to and including" which sounded a bit formal, and then when I was on holiday in the Netherlands I realised that consciously or otherwise they were translating "tot en met". I'd second the suggestion here that adding "inclusive" is the most natural-sounding way to do this in English. – AAT Aug 26 '11 at 22:28
  • "... inclusive" would be common usage among people with a maths/science/technology background, and those around them, but is probably not as common elsewhere. – slim Dec 19 '11 at 15:45
3

To imply the former, I would use "Wednesday the 22nd of June through Friday the 24th of June."

rintaun
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  • Yes 22 nd of course... silly me. :) So through is not ambiguous, in that it could imply both meanings? – Decent Dabbler Jun 22 '11 at 00:55
  • @fireeyedboy That's correct. It can only include the 24th, as far as I am aware. – rintaun Jun 22 '11 at 01:53
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    @fireeyedboy: I disagree. "Through" does not require inclusivity, though circumstances may imply it. English is in general ambiguous about whether measures are inclusive or exclusive, and "through" isn't an exception to that. Some explicit phrase like those in the other answers is needed. –  Jun 22 '11 at 12:09
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    This answer is wrong (no offense). Wednesday through Friday can certainly mean exclusive. It's strange it got 6 votes! – Fattie Jun 22 '11 at 17:34
  • @Joe @Rhodri Can you give me some examples? I'm legitimately at a loss trying to think of any examples where "through" is exclusive. – rintaun Jun 22 '11 at 18:17
  • Well quite simply, you could say "9th through 19th exclusive," meaning it is exclusive. You would say "inclusive" to mean it's inclusive. through (or almost any other word) can be used with both specifications, either inclusive or exclusive. Any legal contract (for example) would certainly specify inclusive or exclusive. the actual translation of tot en met is "up to and including" as Marcin says. This answer is utterly, totally, completely wrong, I'm sorry! The six people who ticked it up are simply incorrect. Look at any legal boilerplate (for example) for proof. – Fattie Jun 22 '11 at 19:06
  • Here's an everyday example of using "through" with "exclusive". http://www.hacker.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=607&start=45&sid=3cf5bce5e13b57d9c8a1dff2b3647371 "sum of the 1st through 5th (exclusive) natural numbers..." You can google up any number of examples! – Fattie Jun 22 '11 at 19:07
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    @rintuan there are NO "examples" where "through is inclusive". I will simply copy and paste what Rhodri already exactly explained... "Through" does not require inclusivity. English is ambiguous about whether measures are inclusive or exclusive. "Through" isn't an exception to that. It's just that simple. – Fattie Jun 22 '11 at 19:09
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    @Joe I cannot agree based on your examples. "Through" is, in normal speech, inclusive by default. While specifically adding "exclusive" does allow the listener to understand that the list is exclusive, available data suggests this not standard usage. If it were, a Google search for "1 through 10 exclusive" would return more than two real results. There are many more examples of "1 through 10 inclusive", but that number doesn't compare to simply "1 through 10" (which, when actually read, almost universally imply inclusivity). – rintaun Jun 22 '11 at 19:41
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    @Everyone: The very fact that you are having this discussion illustrates that "through" is ambiguous as to whether it is inclusive. – Marcin Jun 25 '11 at 20:00
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    I think "through" in this context is also rather American-sounding -- I don't think I've ever heard a UK-English speaker use it. – AAT Aug 26 '11 at 22:25
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    "Monday until Friday" is maybe ambiguous, "Monday through Friday" is unambiguously inclusive. If you saw a store advertising "Monday through Saturday" opening hours, would anyone actually expect them to not be open on Saturday? – tenfour Dec 19 '11 at 15:19
  • Of course "through" is inclusive. If a native speaker said this to another native speaker, inculsivity of the last date would be deduced. Through is through, not before, not after. "to and including", "inclusive"....balderdash. –  Dec 19 '11 at 15:13
  • -1 - because "through" doesn't necessarily signal "inclusive" to everyone. – Dominic Cronin Jul 18 '12 at 20:55
  • Using the word through, does seem strange to me. If you go through something, it normally means that you go all of the way through and come out at the other end. But, "Wednesday through Friday" sounds unclear because, it does not say what the other end is. Saturday? Or, any of the following days? – Tristan Jul 19 '12 at 15:55
  • Using through, seems strange because it does not involve saying what the other end is and therefore seems to be an unfinished sentence. Like saying "my bad". (your bad what?). – Tristan Jul 19 '12 at 15:59
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"through" is an American usage. As an Englishman, I'd say "From Wednesday the 22nd of June to Friday the 24th of June, inclusive"

Dominic Cronin
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  • You're right. Saying "through" in that context, seems odd and jarring to me. – Tristan Jul 18 '12 at 21:58
  • Even for an American...you have to check. Just because the word is supposed to mean "including" doesn't mean the speaker and all the listeners realize that. Its a subtle nuance, and not every one of us Americans is great with understanding subtle nuance. ;-) – T.E.D. Dec 09 '13 at 22:19
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For the sentence "Wednesday the 22nd of June until and including Friday the 24th of June"; you can say "Wednesday the 22nd of June until Friday the 24th of June" or, "Wednesday the 22nd of June to Friday the 24th of June".

To use the word "through" instead of until or to, is a feature of American English. You can use it if speaking American English, otherwise it's not necessary and the words until or to will be sufficient and more appropriate.

Tristan
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    Are you saying "from Wednesday until Friday" always includes Friday in the U.K.? It is certainly ambiguous in the U.S. – Peter Shor Jul 19 '12 at 12:18
  • In my experience, yes. That's a common way to word such a sentence. – Tristan Jul 19 '12 at 12:46
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    In the U.S., "I'll be away until Saturday" means I'm returning on Saturday, and "I'll be away through Saturday" means I'm returning on Sunday or later (or possibly Saturday night). What does "I'll be away until Saturday" mean in England? – Peter Shor Jul 19 '12 at 15:18
  • The same. It means returning on Saturday. – Tristan Jul 19 '12 at 15:43
-3

To avoid the problem it might even be better to say "Wednesday the 22nd of June until Saturday the 25th of June" meaning that Friday the 24th is included but Saturday isn't.

aedia λ
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Ruben Philipsen
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    Many people will assume Saturday is included if you say "until Saturday", so this may not get the intended meaning across. – aedia λ Dec 09 '13 at 21:43