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A friend of mine, pursuing BA(Hons) in English corrected me that no one uses shall now and often it is advised to prefer the use of should, would, etc.

Although Downton Abbey is set upon a time period decades ago, the characters make use of "shall" frequently in their sentences, I have noticed in some British movies and shows that the character make use of "shall" quite often. I couldn't help but notice that I never came across and American character making use of "shall" in an American TV show or movie, or maybe I missed catching the character making use of it.

What is with "shall" in this present-day? Is it obsolete now? Was it only used until contemporary era?

tchrist
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kabhishek
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    Goodness gracious! Whatever shall we do? – Mazura May 07 '16 at 01:37
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    It's not quite obsolete. There are two productive, if minor, constructions that shall participates in; otherwise it isn't used in living speech. – John Lawler May 07 '16 at 01:48
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    Possible duplicate of When should I use "shall" versus "will"? – tchrist May 07 '16 at 02:29
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    @JohnLawler Standards documents, including those from ISO, strictly define SHALL as an absolute requirement equivalent to MUST. Per RFC 2119: 1. MUST This word, or the terms "REQUIRED" or "SHALL", mean that the definition is an absolute requirement of the specification. 2. MUST NOT This phrase, or the phrase "SHALL NOT", mean that the definition is an absolute prohibition of the specification. – tchrist May 07 '16 at 02:33
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    As I said, it occurs in legal writing. But not in English; only in legal writing. – John Lawler May 07 '16 at 02:46
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    Certainly it's exceedingly important in technical spec writing. – Hot Licks May 07 '16 at 03:06
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    I have to believe that expressions such as "Well, I shall be on my way" are still fairly common. "Will" simply doesn't sound right in such cases. – Hot Licks May 07 '16 at 03:08
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    This is the first I've heard about shall's demise. Compare "I shall be at work until 4:00, and then I will come and look at your tractor", "I will be at work until 4:00 and then come look at your tractor", and "I shall be at work until 4:00 and then come look at your tractor". I would only use the first one, because I wouldn't substitute will for shall when composing a compound predicate anymore than I would substitute walk for run. And yes, I used to write specs and contracts, but I don't think that has much to do with it. I'm just wired to keep obligation and volition separate. – Phil Sweet May 07 '16 at 05:10
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    Are you asking if it is rare/non-existant in AmEng compared to BrEng, or if "shall" is obsolete on both sides of the Atlantic? Is your undergraduate friend American by chance? – Mari-Lou A May 07 '16 at 11:53
  • @Mari-LouA I do believe, I reckon it is rare/non-existent in AmEng unless one would be courteous to ask one to come along by speaking 'shall we?' . – kabhishek May 08 '16 at 04:05
  • I discussed with my friend again and she sent me: " "Shall" cannot be considered as an obsolete word nor it is an archaic word. It is used with 3rd person + ing Both arer modals but they have a similar usage. I just said its not used much these days."

    This whole discussion on 'shall' is getting more confusing. :/

     – kabhishek May 08 '16 at 07:12
  • You MUST not pass. You MUST not murder. You MUST not steal. These examples sound better than “SHALL not” to my ears. Perhaps I’m just a frustrated editor. Shall I go on? (Just kidding) – Jon Cato Jan 28 '24 at 23:35

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In my (BrE*) speech "shall" is very much alive. In normal speech I say "I'll", but if I have reason to expand it, I'm as likely to say "I shall go" as "I will go".

And in a question, "Shall I" is much more natural than "Will I": I would say "will I" only when asking about a prediction or whether I will have permission or ability to do something in the future.

*Actually, this is one place where "British English" is an inadequate term, because Scottish English is different: many Scottish people do not use "shall" at all, even in permission questions: "Will I open the window?"

Colin Fine
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  • The last bit of what you said is interesting. I'm sure you're right, but I've never heard "Will I open the window?" before, and am not even sure I would understand its meaning immediately. – tchrist May 07 '16 at 13:39
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shall, verb –Google

(in the first person) expressing the future tense. "this time next week I shall [(will)] be in Scotland"

Personally, I shall allow shall to become archaic only over my dead body. It's not that I shouldn't or that I won't; I will.

The only time it replaces should is in the idiom "shall I..."

Admiral Piett: "Shall I hold them?"

Lord Vader: "No. Leave them to me."

I can't think of any instance where it should replace would.

Community
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Mazura
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    Shall we consider this a bit further? It doesn’t replace should in first-person interrogatives. It has a different nuance. – tchrist May 07 '16 at 01:58
  • I believe we both just validated that it is not archaic. See its nuances here. – Mazura May 07 '16 at 02:16
  • the language of Piett / Vader is indeed deliberately meant to sound archaic. they're an Empire, recall. – Fattie May 07 '16 at 02:59
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    @Joe Blow: And why should an empire be considered archaic? Unless your idea of archaic is close to "but that's so 15 minutes ago" :-) – jamesqf May 07 '16 at 05:29
  • In U.S. English it is rarely used, although in some quarters it shall be long appreciated. – KWinker May 07 '16 at 06:25
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    Admiral Piett in the Empire Strikes back is played by a Mancunian (British) actor. The link you posted underneath the OP's question is from Peter Pan, written by J.M. Barrie. How about finding some American English examples? :) – Mari-Lou A May 07 '16 at 11:58
  • @KWinker: Whose US English are we talking about? That of literate people, or the argot of the streets, in which 800 words are enough, if three of them are 'bitch', 'ho', and 'mofo'? – jamesqf May 07 '16 at 17:13
  • @jamesfq, you are right -- I should have placed that in the context of "In my experience." However, that experience is much more on the literate people end of the spectrum than the other. (length restrictions make me continue in another comment...) – KWinker May 07 '16 at 18:58
  • And I find that my experience is echoed by Oxford Dictionaries (here http://blog.oxforddictionaries.com/2013/09/will-versus-shall/) when considering the situation in the U.S. (under The View from America): (length restrictions, 2/3)... – KWinker May 07 '16 at 18:59
  • "When talking about the future, will is dominant and shall seems to have fallen into disuse. According to Garner’s Modern American Usage, shall is ‘peripheral’ and occurs mainly in questions expressing suggestions or seeking agreement and in legal usage (see above). Garner also states that ‘in law it is declining because of increased recognition of its hopeless ambiguity as actually misused by lawyers’." (3/3) – KWinker May 07 '16 at 18:59
  • @Mari-LouA - I was waiting for someone to call me out on the British Admiral; didn't know the bit about Pan though. All "British" sayings in Star Wars are now common place American English. That alone answers the question IMO. – Mazura May 07 '16 at 23:36
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As a middle-aged American from the Northeast, I can confirm that the use of “shall” is alive (if not entirely well) among my cohort of speakers. I’m most inclined to use “shall” in an interrogative (shall I go to the store?) where in my usage the alternative (should I go?) implies an urgency or necessity (we’re all out of milk e.g.).

I’m just reporting here the style of usage I learned as a child, haven’t vetted it for its “correctness“. However, I do have the sense that the usage of “shall” is on the decline in popular American culture.

StephenS
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Anonymous
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Shall is common in legal texts and related areas of writing, such as standards and specifications.

So common, in fact, that lawyers and judges are in constant debate as to its meaning. This alone is enough to make the word immortal.

A google search for “legal meaning of shall” should be enough to convince anyone. I chose the example below because I kind of like the University of Florida, but it’s one among many.

https://facultyblogs.law.ufl.edu/state-supreme-court-case-fuels-debate-over-shall-and-a-possible-solution-to-the-shall-problem/

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I suggest that you become familiar with Google nGram Viewer and with Google Books for this sort of question. Here is your answer in graphical form.

American English

enter image description here

British English

enter image description here

A search on Google Books

Search terms are "shall" 21st century

enter image description here

chasly - supports Monica
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I would think most speakers would use the contractions "I'll" or "we'll or "you'll" or "they'll", in most conversations. And if you asked them whether they were contracting 'shall' or 'will' and asked for a RAPID response. . .I doubt you'd get one. If my surmise proved correct, the ambivalence would suggest "shall" is on the cusp, but not archaic.

clark
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I don't think Gandalf's

YOU SHALL NOT PASS!

would have sounded quite so authoritative any other way.

chiastic-security
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  • Do NOT pass go. Do not collect £200... sounds pretty authoritative to me. He could have easily said "You will not pass" and the meaning would not have changed. J.R.R. Tolkien (British) also wrote LOTR in the 1950s... Would an American modern-day hero say those same words? – Mari-Lou A May 07 '16 at 12:02
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    @Mari-LouA First off, Gandalf didn’t use shall there in the book. But quite honestly, the shall would make sense there, at least to me, because for me shall carries a strong sense of command, or of something inevitable. Think of the KJV Ten Commandments with all their thou shalt not commands, for example. – tchrist May 07 '16 at 13:42
  • @tchrist KJV was written in the late 15th century.... so would a modern-day American hero ever say: "You shall not get away with it!" ;) I don't think so. – Mari-Lou A May 07 '16 at 15:52