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There's a debate in the office about what makes a phrase or expression or group of words an idiom. The phrase in question: "middle of nowhere." The sentence: "The website drops you off in the middle of nowhere."

I feel it is not an idiom or idiomatic usage because the meaning can be understood by understanding the individual words and the words taken as a group. However, I could be wrong.

Is "middle of nowhere" an idiom?

michael_timofeev
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    I think this is a more general debate: two camps exist, one which holds that idiom coincides with "set phrase", as in "it's an idiomatic usage", and another which holds that only set phrases whose meaning can't be derived from their constituent words count as "idioms". I'm in the former (more liberal) camp, and so would say "middle of nowhere" is an idiom. If I were surrounded by the enemy, I would say "set phrase" to avoid giving offense. – Dan Bron Jul 11 '16 at 11:26
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    I'd say that if you understand this idiom, it's because it's so widespread that it influences the way you perceive "nowhere". Think about it for a second, "nowhere" cannot have a middle, a center. It's an idiom, even though you know all the words (as in raining cats and dogs) but "middle" change the definition, even goes against the definition of "nowhere". I might be wrong though, hence it's just a thought. – P. O. Jul 11 '16 at 11:28
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    Ok, so in the question "What exactly is an idiom?", the top-scoring answer would have "middle of nowhere" be an idiom, without further qualification. OTOH, the expert cited in the other answer recognizes the existence of a broad schism, and would recommend identifying which set of terminology you're using before applying any labels. – Dan Bron Jul 11 '16 at 11:41
  • I would go with @P.Obertelli on this one. If you replace "nowhere" with either "everywhere" or "somewhere" then you come up with a phrase that you don't quite know how to interpret although you know the individual words. I would make this an answer but for a niggling doubt. When I google "nowhere definition", one of the results is "a place that is remote, uninteresting, or nondescript". In this case "the middle of nowhere" almost has a literal meaning. – Hugh Meyers Jul 11 '16 at 12:59

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Middle of nowhere :

A number of dictionaries list the expression as idiomatic.

  • McGraw-Hill Dictionary of American Idioms and Phrasal Verbs.

  • Cambridge Dictionary of American Idioms

  • Cambridge Idioms Dictionary, 2nd ed.

the middle of nowhere:

  • (idiomatic) A very remote place; a nondescript place lacking population, interesting things, or defining characteristics.

    • 1889 Nov. 2, "The Proof" (editorial), The Daily Record (Kansas, USA), p. 2:

    • We set out to demonstrate to the people of the county that a corrupt ring managed the Republican party in this county. . . . We want that corrupt ring knocked into the middle of Nowhere.

(Wiktionary)

  • Any idea why they listed it as an idiom? What was their criteria? – michael_timofeev Jul 11 '16 at 16:53
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    Well, whatever is, the first point is that the expression *is* idiomatic. I am not aware of what parameters each single dictionary uses, but I'd personally have no doubt about the fact that it is. One peculiar point is that the phrase is sort of fixed one. You wouldn't say "in some parts of nowhere or at the extremity of nowhere". –  Jul 11 '16 at 16:57
  • @michael_timofeev The expression is from the early 20th century https://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=middle+of+nowhere&year_start=1900&year_end=2008&corpus=15&smoothing=3&share=&direct_url=t1%3B%2Cmiddle%20of%20nowhere%3B%2Cc0 - the real question is, where does it come from? –  Jul 11 '16 at 17:03
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    @Josh61 It will be a great etymology question. –  Jul 11 '16 at 17:20
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I'd say that it's probably not an idiom but it's a grey area (which itself is an idiom). Generally, an idiom's meaning isn't obvious. But how do we define "obvious"?

One way would be to do a poll, asking 100 people who weren't familiar with the phrase to guess its meaning. I'd say that if the majority of people don't guess it, then it's an idiom. If they do guess it, then it's just a figure of speech (all idioms are also figures of speech, which just means something that isn't meant to be taken literally).

Having agreed on this, we could then start arguing about what consitutes a majority - does 51% count? That seems too low to me. My instinct would be that an idiom wouldn't be guessed by at least 75% of people.

Going on that, my own guess would be that more than 25% of people would guess the correct meaning for "The middle of nowhere", (therefore less than 75% failing to guess it) and so it would fail the idiom test. But there's a lot of guessing and opinion in there - hence why I described it as a "grey area".

Max Williams
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  • What definition of idiom are you using? The basic idea of all the definitions I have seen is that the meaning is not deducible from the individual words. Merriam-Webster gives "he kicked the bucket" as an example of an idiom. It is widely understood but has no direct, logical connection with "he struck a water container with his foot." – Hugh Meyers Jul 11 '16 at 13:08
  • "not deducible" is the same as "not obvious", i think, in this context. So it sounds like my meaning is the same as yours. I didn't specify that it had to be obvious "from the words" as I don't know what else one would have to go on. With deducible i suspect you'd have the same difficulty that some people can deduce it and some can't: there's no clear cut line between what's deducible and what isn't. – Max Williams Jul 11 '16 at 13:11
  • From the individual words. That's the point. The phrase as a whole has a meaning different from its parts. Or take this definition from dictionary.cambridge.org: "a group of words in a fixed order that have a particular meaning that is different from the meanings of each word on its own." That said, maybe I need to think more about the difference between an idiom and a figure of speech. It's an interesting point. – Hugh Meyers Jul 11 '16 at 13:21
  • Consider "Drowning in paperwork", which most people would say isn't an idiom, but just a figure of speech. It conjures up an image of someone thrashing around up to their neck in office paper, files etc. Can you put that through the "individual words vs group of words" test? To me, the overall meaning is different to the individual words meaning, since the individual is not at any risk of actually dying, and thus is not actually drowning. But (most people would agree) it's not an idiom. I don't want to get into an argument but I think the "not obvious/deducible" aspect is the key. – Max Williams Jul 11 '16 at 13:25
  • I would agree with your explanation +1). But it also depends on English proficiency of those 100 people. Even if they are all native English speakers, education level will play a critical role, too because the less educated, the less likely you will deduct meaning from idioms. I always reply "When you look up a phrase or clause in any idiom dictionary and if it is there, it's an idiom." :-) –  Jul 11 '16 at 14:20
  • Yes, it depends on lots of things - hence why it's such a grey area. Yes, you could look it up, but ultimately any idiom dictionary is going to contain a lot of scope for arguing whether things are or aren't idioms. – Max Williams Jul 11 '16 at 14:39