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I am trying to understand the logic of grammar and semantics in this specific context, and to what extent to "push" the boundaries within language-common-sense (I have read the various threads here on the topic of "off").

Standard usage example

"Pushing them off to..." (to the corner, to the side, etc.)

If the adverb off amplifies the value/significance of the verb push, clarifying that the thrust is away from certain limits, why it could not do the same with the verb persuading?

Example question:

"Persuading them off to.." (another physical location or a mental position)

There is some overlapping in meaning:

Push Cajole Persuade

Any thoughts?

Dennis R. Hidalgo
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2 Answers2

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1) There is neither motion nor location in the verb persuade that could be intensified with an adverb.

2) The off really modifies the prepositional phrase rather than the verb and suggests a further distance from the speaker, even if only an emotional one. Someone off in the corner is more sidelined than someone merely in the corner, while "off to the side" seems more out of the way. The push is just how they got there.

KarlG
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    Thanks. Wouldn't you say, however, that persuade conveys the meaning of movement in opinion (change of opinion)? And if the change in opinion refers to a physical movement, the entire matter is already conveyed by the sentence and should be understood by the reader?

    For example:

    "Everybody kept talking about music camp even when I made it clear to everyone around me that I wanted to stay. Each conversation found its way back to the subject, as if they were attempting to persuade me off to camp because they did not want me among them that summer."

     – Dennis R. Hidalgo Jan 07 '18 at 14:17
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    When Shakespeare has his Cleopatra complain shortly before her suicide that an actor would "boy my greatness in the posture of a whore," his audience even today understands exactly what was meant, but they do not rush to use boy as a verb. This usage of persuade is a similar wordplay, literalizing the metaphor to which you alluded: persuasion moves minds, thus, in this author's mind, why not dispatch him/her to music camp as well? It's a clever figure of speech, but not standard usage. – KarlG Jan 07 '18 at 14:38
  • So, I require Shakespearean credentials before coining the phrase? :) – Dennis R. Hidalgo Jan 07 '18 at 17:07
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    @DennisHidalgo My understanding of the difference is that a physical push (and, by analogy, a metaphorical push) instigates the actual physical movement of the person or object being pushed. Persuasion doesn't do that, it instigates the desire in the person to move themselves. You can 'persuade someone to move off to the left' but you can't 'persuade someone off to the left' you can only push them there. – BoldBen Jan 07 '18 at 23:04
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    @BoldBen It seems you have built upon previous commentaries to offer a clear picture of the problem. You define the main difference between pushing and persuading: one is an actual movement (involuntarily) while the other one only makes an argument for a willful act. So, that's why Off could not work alone. This also means that we have been misusing pushing to sometimes denote the act of persuasion. – Dennis R. Hidalgo Jan 08 '18 at 02:34
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    To push someone to do something, to push someone around by being a domineering bully, or being a pushy person, is metaphor; there is no physical motion any more than a moving musical performance means I changed my seat. This does not make such usage wrong in some way. Metaphor is how language works. – KarlG Jan 08 '18 at 05:35
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    @KarlG You are correct. Language should have the space for that. I should refine my comments then to say that I was taking the metaphor of pushing to close to persuading, which helped me see both words as deserving the off, when only one (push) could use it properly. – Dennis R. Hidalgo Jan 08 '18 at 14:41
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    @DennisR.Hidalgo Colloquially we do use 'pushing' for a form of persuasion as in "My wife's been pushing me to join the gym", but it carries the connotation of pressurising rather than gentle persuasion. Also we'd never use 'persuade' with 'off' in the way you did in the original question. Glad you appreciate our suggestions. – BoldBen Jan 08 '18 at 22:28
  • @BoldBen I will not press this point further, but if you happen to think of a word that conveys the same or similar meaning as pushing as a form of pressure rather than involuntary thrust and that could be use with off, let me know, please. I want to describe the pressure a group of people received to emigrate and include the adverb off. Thanks – Dennis R. Hidalgo Jan 08 '18 at 23:28
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"Pushing" may be used in a physical sense: "The panicked crowd pushed over anything and anyone in its way." It may also be used figuratively: "His father pushed him to study harder." The verb "persuade", however, may only properly be used to mean to change someone's opinion or decision (including a decision to take, or to refuse to take, some physical action), by means of argument, threat, or reward. The key is that persuasion is not used to physically force someone to change location or action, but rather to indirectly cause a relocation or an action by changing the will of the person being persuaded.

Your example, "Pushing them off to the side.." seems to be a non-physical situation where "them" is involuntarily being metaphorically relocated. They ("them") aren't being persuaded to decide to move to the side, but rather forced "to the side" against their firm will to remain.

"Off" in your example is simply an adverb that indicates (barely) where "them" has been pushed. "Off" may be used with "push" in either a tangible or intangible sense: "He was pushed off the cliff", or "He was pushed out of his job". It is not proper to say "He was persuaded off the cliff". Even in the rare instance where someone is talked into committing suicide, one would have to say, "He was persuaded to commit suicide". In English one can not be

Using "persuade" only to mean changing someone's mind is probably the safest course.

Allen S.
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  • Thanks. Are you implying that here is where the line is drawn to separate a verb related to personal will and one that suggests involuntary movement? "Pushing them off" can't equal: "Persuade them off" From the position I am reading your comments, there is a clear resistance in the language culture to substitute persuade with push, even when they share some overlap in meaning. As if swapping them would violate these verbs' core essences. If so, I think it is a significant issue. Or perhaps, I am way off in my interpretation. Again. Thanks. – Dennis R. Hidalgo Jan 07 '18 at 14:29
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    @DennisHidalgo I think the point is that “push off” is idiomatic while “persuade off” isn’t, so “push them off ...” works while “*persuade them off ...” doesn’t. – Lawrence Jan 07 '18 at 14:43
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    @Lawrence Thanks. How so? If an idiomatic expression refers to a type of informal English that transmits a meaning different from the meaning in the words used in the expression, how would "push off" means differently from "push" and "off" separately? In other words, how is putting these two words together producing a different meaning from the ones they convey individually? Originally, I thought that "Off" modifies or amplifies the "push," or the prepositional phrase in which is included. But if this is an idiomatic expression, would not that change everything? – Dennis R. Hidalgo Jan 07 '18 at 14:58
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    @DennisHidalgo You're welcome. Things can be pushed into holes, up ladders, off to the side or onto platforms. These prepositions go quite naturally with push; they don't really amplify anything - they just say where the push was directed towards. – Lawrence Jan 07 '18 at 15:04
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    @Lawrence (In good spirit of scholarly conversation), I think that's exactly the meaning of "amplify" or "modify." They "go naturally," as you say, only because we understand how they relate (for a ESL, it would have to be explained). Yet, the "off," as it has been discussed in previous threads and pointed by others here, makes the "push" more egregious (if it is negative), or evident. At least, that's how I see it. – Dennis R. Hidalgo Jan 07 '18 at 15:20
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    @DennisHidalgo I see what you're getting at. The key is to determine whether the 'amplification' is due to off 'modifying' push or to the side. To my ear, 'amplification' only happens when we think of the person as being pushed off, rather than being pushed off to one side. This goes back to my earlier point: one can be idiomatically "pushed off", but one cannot idiomatically be "persuaded off". They can, of course, be persuaded off to one side, but that doesn't provide any 'amplification'. To amplify, you'd have to use something like 'persuaded completely to one side'. – Lawrence Jan 07 '18 at 15:55
  • @AllenS. Apologies for cluttering up the comments to your answer. How would you complete the penultimate paragraph in your answer: "In English one can not be ..."? – Lawrence Jan 07 '18 at 15:57
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    @Lawrence Your latest comment highlights to me the significant difference between "persuading" and "pushing": involuntary movement. Thanks. – Dennis R. Hidalgo Jan 07 '18 at 16:37
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    @Lawrence. Just a typo; I had deleted it earlier in the same paragraph in favor of “it is not proper...”, but I apparently also hit “paste” when the cursor was at the end of the paragraph. I wish I had a less embarrassing explanation. – Allen S. Jan 08 '18 at 17:07
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    @AllenS. No problem - it happens to the best of us. :) – Lawrence Jan 08 '18 at 17:18