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Here's part of a poem from Tolkien:

'For a couple o' pins,' says Troll, and grins,
'I'll eat thee too, and gnaw thy shins.
A bit o' fresh meat will go down sweet!
I'll try my teeth on thee now.

When you check up the meaning of "pin" in a dictionary, here is the usual definition (all the following definitions are from Google):

a thin piece of metal with a sharp........

The usage in the poem definitely has nothing to do with the previous definition. I suspect it has to be either this:

a person's legs.

Or this:

a half-firkin cask for beer. (British)

It could easily be neither of those as well. So folks, do you have anything to offer ? What does "a couple o' pins" mean in this context ?

Mitch
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doubleOrt
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  • Must be the beer, what else? It can't be the legs. It would not work here. Because it can't be: for a couple of legs, I'll eat thee too. If he could have the beer, then he'd "eat thee too". And if he's gnawing the shins, that would include the parts of the body he would eat and probably the legs. For x in English means: In exchange for some thing, I would do some other thing. – Lambie Apr 02 '18 at 17:26
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    It could be pins as in bits of metal, as in I'd eat you for the price of a worthless bit of metal. – JeffUK Apr 02 '18 at 17:28
  • @JeffUK That's kind of how I read it too. The troll is facetiously saying he'll waive his customary fee... – user888379 Apr 02 '18 at 17:29
  • Actually, it could be the pointy metal things. At one time these had sufficient value that they served as "small change" in bartering deals. – Hot Licks Apr 02 '18 at 17:29
  • @Lambie The definitions I listed are the only ones which are even related to the poem. But you are right, it is definitely not "legs". But I am not certain if it is the beer either. – doubleOrt Apr 02 '18 at 17:30
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    @HotLicks Could you provide a source ? – doubleOrt Apr 02 '18 at 17:30
  • Trolls are dumb and vicious, basically. Bartering takes a certain level of "sophistication". The beer makes more sense. Give me a beer, and I'll even eat your legs. Notice the "too". The too suggests they drink the beer and eat the legs, too [of the person being addressed]. You wouldn't eat the legs of your addressee, if you are bartering with them... – Lambie Apr 02 '18 at 17:39
  • @lambie it's clear in context that the 'too' refers to the bone he's been told to stop eating – JeffUK Apr 02 '18 at 17:40
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    He wants fresh meat and is being sarcastic. Like I said, you don't barter with someone you are about to eat. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Troll_(Middle-earth) They are portrayed as large humanoids of great strength and poor intellect. – Lambie Apr 02 '18 at 17:43
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    Could this be a variation on the BrE expression "for two pins" (which means "at the slightest provocation")? – Laurel Apr 02 '18 at 17:43
  • @Taurus - "Prior to departing St. Louis in 1804, on their expedition into the then unknown Far West, Meriwether Lewis and William Clark amassed thousands of items for trade with or as gifts for the Indians they would encounter: sewing needles, brass kettles" https://books.google.com/books?id=bas9ANA4V6AC&pg=PA132&lpg=PA132&dq=indians+sewing+needles+trading&source=bl&ots=r4DgcSEYTQ&sig=N_wqcLkihHAvEljCK3KpjzQa548&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwi9q_jVkZzaAhXoqFQKHYF0BWUQ6AEIcjAH#v=onepage&q=indians%20sewing%20needles%20trading&f=false – Hot Licks Apr 02 '18 at 17:43
  • @k1eran I don't think this would be any poetic though. I am not a poet but I don't think you can just throw words in like that, if pins culturally are seen as worthless, then ok, but otherwise I don't think it is likely. – doubleOrt Apr 02 '18 at 18:01
  • Prior to the Industrial Revolution, pins were not worthless, as in the saying about "See a pin, pick it up...", or this on the price of pins during the American Revolution: http://twonerdyhistorygirls.blogspot.com/2009/11/pins-pinning.html So "a couple of pins" might be equivalent to a couple of farthings in Tolkien's day, or a couple of US pennies nowadays. IOW, a miniscule sum. – jamesqf Apr 03 '18 at 02:34
  • It's simply like saying "I'd do it for a couple of cents" or "I'd do it for a couple of beans". – Fattie Apr 03 '18 at 11:24

3 Answers3

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I think this may be a variation on the BrE expression "for two pins", which means:

At the slightest provocation; for the smallest reason.
Farlex Dictionary of Idioms (via TFD)

I assume that "pins" here refers to the type used in sewing or another practically worthless type of pin.

The earliest attestation of this idiom that I found so far is from 1890:

For two pins I'd put a match in every gunyah on the place.
The Squatter's Dream: A Story of Australian Life

Here's another early example from The Times (London, 1794):

I'll blow you up for a sodomite, for two pins.

There are other, older idioms where pins are worthless (note that the expression most likely refers to pins made of wood or bone, not metal). "Not worth a pin", "wouldn't care a pin", etc.:

He seide al þat he had ywonne
Jn þe werlde vnder sonne,
He nolde ȝiue þere-of a pynne,
Bot he miȝth þise wynne.

He said all that he had won
In the world under the sun,
He wouldn't give thereof a pin,
If he might win this.
Kyng Alisaunder

See 9. b for more quotes (and a definition) from Middle English.

It was even used by Shakespeare:

A round hose, madam, now's not worth a pin.
The Two Gentlemen of Verona

It's worth mentioning that I found the exact same expression "for a couple o' pins" in:

  • The Leisure Hour (1904):

    • [F]or a couple o' pins I'd shteam-rowl yez under the two feet o' me.

  • The chimney corner (1879):

    • See now, for a couple o' pins I'd take both yerself an' the little sweep ye call 'John' to the lock-ups!

Laurel
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    Funny how it sounds a bit like tuppence , which isn't very much. – tchrist Apr 02 '18 at 18:44
  • @tchrist: I think if you chase it it may well be two pence. – AbraCadaver Apr 02 '18 at 20:40
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    @tchrist so are we saying that "pins" in this context is "pence". Can we find references for that? – Quasi_Stomach Apr 02 '18 at 21:48
  • @tchrist While that may be true in some dialects, I doubt there is a connection. The timing just doesn't line up. According to the OED, pence was only spelled pins "pre-17". Given that the earliest attestation of "for two pins" is 1794, that's just too late for it to make sense. Besides, "for two pins" is listed on the OED page for pin, not the page for penny/pence or some other word. – Laurel Apr 02 '18 at 21:59
  • @Quasi_Stomach No, I just found it amusingly coincidental. – tchrist Apr 02 '18 at 22:10
  • @tchrist too bad =( – Quasi_Stomach Apr 02 '18 at 22:14
  • Does 'pence' come from 'pins' (feather quills), 'pens' (tails), or 'pans' (disks)? – AmI Apr 02 '18 at 23:14
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    @AmI "Pence" is the plural of "penny". (It could have been a worse spelling, you know :P) – Laurel Apr 02 '18 at 23:21
  • I know, but which root -- or was your joke a vote for 'penis' (tail)? – AmI Apr 02 '18 at 23:32
  • @AmI "Penny" is the root. "Penny" itself came from the Proto-Germanic word *panningaz, but beyond that *panningaz is of uncertain origin. – Laurel Apr 02 '18 at 23:45
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    I didn't buy 'pfennig' as a root, but 'panningaz' is, alas, inscrutable. – AmI Apr 02 '18 at 23:53
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    I even remember British people, who were alive in say the 1940s, saying this. "Not worth a pin". It's a case of .. it's that simple. – Fattie Apr 03 '18 at 11:28
  • The edit settles it. – doubleOrt Apr 03 '18 at 15:47
  • I still hear this expression today, but mainly in the negative: "I don't give two pins" "He wouldn't give two pins" etc. – 1006a Apr 03 '18 at 18:11
  • When dressmaking pins were made by hand they were something of real but very small value. As the process of making them became more mechanised they began to be sold in numbers pushed through sheets of paper in the form of "a paper of pins" which were sold for a farthing (a quarter of a pre-decimal penny). They were still sold in papers in the 1950s. I understand that papers of pins were often given in place of a farthing's change, probably because the wholesale price was less than a farthing but also because there was, in the early days of the industrial revolution, a shortage of low-denominT – BoldBen May 12 '22 at 13:05
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When dressmaking pins were made by hand they were something of real but very small value. As the process of making them became more mechanised the value dropped and they began to be sold in numbers pushed through sheets of paper in the form of "a paper of pins" which were sold for a farthing (a quarter of a pre-decimal penny). They were still sold in papers in the 1950s.

I understand that papers of pins were often given in place of a farthing's change, probably because the wholesale price was less than a farthing but also because there was, in the early days of the industrial revolution, a shortage of low-denomintion coinage.

I suspect that the practice of giving pins as change is quite old, even pre-dating mechanisation, and was part of the pre-industrial barter system. Thus saying things like "For two pins I'd..." or "I wouldn't give two pins ..." would have been a natural way to indicate a low value or tolerence of something.

Interestingly there is a folk song which starts with a suitor saying "I will give you a paper of pins because that's the way my love begins". He then proceeds to offer the girl more valuable gifts until she accepts. How old this is I'm not too sure but it seems to be at least 18C from some of the internal references.

BoldBen
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Being a cooper (barrel maker), I have always considered ‘pins’ to refer to a small barrel. Thus ‘for two pins’ (of rum or beer) I would have enough courage to do something that I shouldn’t.

Tony
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