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I was reading Jeremy Harmer's book (how to teach), and i encountered the sentence "it is, therefore, especially important that they are both fully engaged with what is going on and also ready to listen". But isn't that a subjunctive? Shouldn't it be "it is important that they "be" engaged..."? He's such a renowned author, I don't think he would make such mistakes, but this is kind of confusing.

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    Jeremy Harmer is British. The use of the subjunctive is much rarer there than in the U.S. – Peter Shor Nov 10 '18 at 23:17
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    And even in the USA that wouldn't be thought unusual or incorrect. Using be instead of an inflected form in a that clause is almost always optional. – John Lawler Nov 10 '18 at 23:35
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    @PeterShor Do you actually have any evidence that it is "rarer" in Britain? In that particular situation my own inclination would almost certainly have been to use "be". Though I do agree entirely with John L. about it being optional. – WS2 Nov 11 '18 at 07:20
  • @WS2: Ngrams seems to show that the subjunctive is dying in both places but that it's much closer to expiring in the U.K. This definitely varies by region of the U.S. (Probably also in the U.K.) The link is too large to fit in this comment, so see my next one. – Peter Shor Nov 11 '18 at 14:58
  • Ngram supporting the previous comment. – Peter Shor Nov 11 '18 at 14:59
  • @PeterShor Ngrams must necessarily be hedged about with all sorts of qualifications and caveats. The most obvious is that they are based on "books", so reflect the written rather than the spoken word. They also reflect an unrepresentative cross-section of usage, namely that of authors. I'm also intrigued to know how these "books" are selected. – WS2 Nov 11 '18 at 15:14
  • @KJO Well I'm an old "east countryman" - Norfolk to be precise. Perhaps that explains it. – WS2 Nov 11 '18 at 15:32
  • @KJO I disagree completely with your last statement. Are you saying that: "I recommend he leave immediately" would not be indicative of "ye olde classe" distinction you have there? Come now. I suppose you might not hear the be usage "down the pub". In the States, either. Only we'd call it our local bar. – Lambie Nov 11 '18 at 15:54
  • @KJO I do agree with you there, in fact. – Lambie Nov 11 '18 at 16:56
  • @WS2 This has just resurfaced, 150 miles north, to my ears 'It is, therefore, especially important that they be both fully engaged with what is going on and also ready to listen' sounds (and sounded 4 years ago) rarefied to pretentious. Context would license 'are', and 'should be' is available for worriers. – Edwin Ashworth Jul 03 '21 at 18:39
  • @EdwinAshworth Then we shall have to agree to differ - I'm afraid. "Be" sounds entirely natural across dialect in Britain, to my ears. – WS2 Jul 03 '21 at 23:15
  • @WS2 Perhaps these Google ngrams (allegedly 'British English', and doubtless less conversationally biased and thus more likely to be formal) better reflect trends here. – Edwin Ashworth Jul 04 '21 at 14:44
  • @EdwinAshworth All the reservations which I have expressed several times about ngrams apply here. But in any event Rhoda's answer below, in my view, has merit. The subjunctive is there for a reason - the sense of the verb is different. – WS2 Jul 05 '21 at 08:14
  • @JohnLawler But is the inflected form "good English", John? As is pointed out by Rachel in her answer, in such a clause the verb has a different meaning. It is important that the teacher be sensitive to the issue, has nothing to do with whether the teacher "is" sensitive or not. And using the "be" form emphasises that fact - which in my view gives the expression more lucidity. – WS2 Jul 05 '21 at 08:37
  • @WS2 I think Google Ngrams more reliable than a single source, despite their shortcomings. // Yes, the subjunctive-or-is-it (CGEL reanalyse some as 'irrealis') can on occasion distinguish meanings, but the periphrastic should construction ('he has decided that you go' = 'he has decided that you are in the habit of going'? or = 'he has decided that you should go'?) is even better here, making the subjunctive improper by your reckoning. And do you continue to distinguish 'thou' and 'ye'? – Edwin Ashworth Jul 05 '21 at 11:56
  • @EdwinAshworth Irrealis versus subjuntive? We are dancing on pin-heads here. Periphrastic involves more words. The simple subjunctive does the job. The Ngrams may well be right. In which case the subjunctive starts to disappear in about 1968, probably marking the point at which British education starts to go downhill. It may reflect a modern trend but, in so far as lucidity is diminished, to me it represents the dumming down of language to accommodate the ignorant. And there is far too much of that on both sides of the pond. – WS2 Jul 05 '21 at 13:11
  • @WS2 To take a perhaps clearer case. 'She insisted that he goes to school' is ambiguous, obviously resolved by 'She insisted that he go to school' for that sense. But 'She insisted that I go to school' remains ambiguous. 'She insisted that I should go to school' resolves this ambiguity. If we use the argument 'Use the one that adds most clarity', only the periphrastic should alternative should be used. I'm afraid other arguments seem overly based on sentimentality. – Edwin Ashworth Jul 05 '21 at 13:14
  • @EdwinAshworth I've never seen the point of using two words where one would provide clarity. So I shall continue to insist that 'he go to school'. Besides, if adherence to older forms of the language amounts to "sentimentality", then bring it on? Abolish that and you will be into widespread book-burning, perhaps starting with the AV bible and the works of Shakespeare. Your approach suggests there should be a universal adoption of a simplified and standardised English -how boring! – WS2 Jul 05 '21 at 15:44
  • @WS2 But you choose where to draw the lines? (No 'ye' or 'thou'; 'It is I/Me'?; 'mandative subjubctive rather than other alternatives'; 'no Addinsonian termination'? ...) How ... individualistic. But note that ELU aims to reflect accepted rather than niche usage. – Edwin Ashworth Jul 05 '21 at 16:02
  • @Edwin Ashworth Of course I chose where to draw the line, in the same way I choose what colour socks I'm going to wear each morning. What is "accepted usage"? Whose getting dogmatic now? Why does there have to be only one form? I really am beginning to wonder if you are a representative of some software interest, committed to rigid standardisation. Take a tip from the Japanese. They have at least three ways of saying absolutely anything, depending on what level of charm or politeness they want to reflect. – WS2 Jul 05 '21 at 16:07

2 Answers2

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I have lived in the UK for thirty years and have definitely seen the subjunctive decline in the past twenty in newspapers and magazines, making it, I suppose, one more victim of the internet. But, regardless of custom, it is not CORRECT to use "are." You have to distinguish between what ought to be and what is, and "are" means that something exists. We have the subjunctive for a reason, and it is a good reason. It's not the subjunctive's problem that ignorant and tin-eared people don't understand it.

Rhoda
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    An excellent point - about the subjunctive being there for good reason. – WS2 Jul 05 '21 at 08:22
  • I'm sorry, 'It is not CORRECT to use "are." ' is mere opinion. This has been discussed on ELU many times, and no less an authority than the Cambridge Grammar of the English Language accepts that the use of the indicative in such cases is not incorrect. John Lawler agrees (and he's a published Professor Emeritus of Linguistics). As does Maugham. See tunny's answer here. – Edwin Ashworth Jul 05 '21 at 11:42
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    Perhaps not INCORRECT, but a world where everyone is persuaded only to speak in simple indicative mood, for efficiency's sake, sounds like something out of science fiction. Is this pressure for using simplistic English driven by the voice-recognition software industry? You keep up the good work @Rhoda. – WS2 Jul 05 '21 at 15:59
  • Dear Mr. Ashworth: To quote Andre Maurois, "If 50 million people say a foolish thing, it is still a foolish thing." And as to the Cambridge Grammar--I went to Oxford. – Rhoda Jul 06 '21 at 09:37
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The question was anwered in the comments, in the sense that "are" is OK.

@WS2: Ngrams seems to show that the subjunctive is dying in both places but that it's much closer to expiring in the U.K. This definitely varies by region of the U.S. (Probably also in the U.K.) The link is too large to fit in this comment, so see my next one. – Peter Shor Nov 11 '18 at 14:58

Ngram supporting the previous comment. – Peter Shor Nov 11 '18 at 14:59

Indepe
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