2

The sentence

  1. I marveled that you chuckled that I said "juxtaposition".

suffers from "that" overload. We'd all agree.

It's easy to slim either 'that'. Hence either

  1. I marveled you chuckled that I said "juxtaposition".
  2. I marveled that you chuckled I said "juxtaposition".

sounds fine.

Does any rule prevent us from going all the way and discarding both?

  1. I marveled you chuckled I said "juxtaposition".
tchrist
  • 134,759
Calaf
  • 121
  • Near duplicate of Are there rules about using “that” to join two clauses? – tchrist Jun 08 '19 at 19:55
  • 3
    The second "that" can easily be replaced. I marveled that you chuckled when I said "juxtaposition". In your final version, the sequence of events becomes unclear. – Weather Vane Jun 08 '19 at 19:56
  • Actually, the first version sound a hair "creaky", but the other three just sound wrong. – Hot Licks Jun 08 '19 at 20:08
  • @WeatherVane I agree with you, but your revised sentence means something else. In the original sentence the word uttered itself triggered a response. Your revised sentence suggests that the timing of uttering the word in question is the issue. – Calaf Jun 08 '19 at 20:12
  • @HotLicks Which one is the first? (Are you counting the original or just the revisions?) I added labels for clarity. – Calaf Jun 08 '19 at 20:13
  • 1
    @tchrist If in the future someone asks something about a triple cascade of "that", you can refer them here. But starting off the cascade cannot (IMHO) be considered a duplication. – Calaf Jun 08 '19 at 20:15
  • 3
    I concur with @HotLicks. I think the problem is that you can't "chuckle that", and you can't very easily "marvel that". Both those verbs need at. And once that is established, at cannot be omitted. – Andrew Leach Jun 08 '19 at 20:34
  • I thought you said he hoped they knew we insisted she have mint ice cream before bed. – tchrist Jun 08 '19 at 20:36
  • @tchrist lol... You got it—my question, that is. In math we're used to add parentheses when necessary and to omit them otherwise. Your sentence is painful because it begs for parentheses for comprehension. Does one get away with just two conjunctions? When? – Calaf Jun 08 '19 at 21:25
  • 2
    @Calaf: I had no trouble parsing Tom's sentence. The thing I did have trouble was your sentence: "In math we're used to add parentheses when necessary ..." I think you mean "we're used to adding" ... – Robusto Jun 08 '19 at 21:57
  • 2
    Chuckle is not a speech verb. You can whisper, shout, snap, cackle, or pipe up with a direct quotation like "It's 2 pm", or an indirect that clause; but you can't, for example, chuckle that it's 2 pm. You can _chuckle about_ something, but not a that-complement. One of the ways of getting a that-complement is the the fact that construction; you can chuckle about the fact that it's 2 pm. But* this construction is factive, and commits the speaker to the truth of the that-clause, which they may not be able to afford. – John Lawler Jun 08 '19 at 22:00
  • @Robusto This rumor my girlfriend cooks me every recipe a cook her mother knows from TV creates is a total lie! – tchrist Jun 09 '19 at 00:44
  • @tchrist: I get it, but you're making my head hurt! ^_^ – Robusto Jun 09 '19 at 01:06
  • @Robusto Oh then just add all the implied instances of that back in I left out. Funny how this doesn't make it any easier. That's because chained right branching is trivial, and nobody ever gets confused by omitting that there. What taxes the mind is syntactically complex embedding of structures where you have to keep track of pending elements. As you might guess, the paper I pinched that one from had had it in German shown. – tchrist Jun 09 '19 at 02:08
  • To suffer from "that 'overload' " is subjective. Different people interpret style differently. So, it's most likely not the case that "we'd all agree." – Jason Bassford Jun 09 '19 at 03:31
  • That that that that that question refers to is obviously needed! – Hot Licks Jun 09 '19 at 14:37
  • @HotLicks Why do you have five 'that's? Your sentence only makes sense (to me) with four (and the second should really be quoted or italicized). – Calaf Jun 11 '19 at 15:04
  • @Calaf - That that that that comment includes is the subject of that that question. – Hot Licks Jun 11 '19 at 16:43

1 Answers1

1

In a comment John Lawler wrote:

Chuckle is not a speech verb. You can whisper, shout, snap, cackle, or pipe up with a direct quotation like "It's 2 pm", or an indirect that clause; but you can't, for example, *chuckle that it's 2 pm. You can chuckle about something, but not a that-complement. One of the ways of getting a that-complement is the the fact that construction; you can chuckle about the fact that it's 2 pm. But this construction is factive, and commits the speaker to the truth of the that-clause, which they may not be able to afford.

tchrist
  • 134,759