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Consider the sentences:

  1. Take my picture [handing over a frame]
  2. Take my picture [handing over a camera]

(Photo vs. picture being insignificant - a more contrived example could avoid it; as is the verb 'take', we could even have no verb, but I think it helps to illustrate.)

What is grammatically different between the first, in which the speaker owns the picture, and the second, in which the speaker is to be depicted?

I've considered:

  • Actually I thought of this example reading about oblique (aka objective) case, after encountering it in another language; is (2) oblique ('as the object of preposition' per Wikipedia examples) I wondered, or is it significant that all of Wikipedia's examples use me; not my?
  • Certainly (1) is genitive/possessive - is (2) also, but with the sense of belonging somehow reversed, the speaker belonging to the picture, and if so is there a term for this?
  • So God created man in his owne Image [Genesis 1:27] is another well known example, which I thought might help me find some discussion; unfortunately it didn't. (It's surely not the same construction as if he created man in the image of his {possession-goes-here}?!)
  • (1) really holds place for picture of mine; (2) for picture of me (and in the Genesis example, him and his respectively) - i.e. independent possessive and object personal pronoun, respectively, and shortened to dependent possessive
    • So (2) is posessesive? Was shortening it from picture of me 'valid' in the first place, or is the issue that it's a (widely used) informal form?
OJFord
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    The difference is in the contextual meanings of take, not of grammar. Grammatically, I suppose the sentences parse identical. – Kris Aug 28 '19 at 11:08
  • You do seem to have a point, though. Just that the example is way off. See also: transitive vs. intransitive verbs. – Kris Aug 28 '19 at 11:09
  • @Kris which meaning is intransitive? It's not clear to me. If a transitive verb takes an object, it is either (1) my framed landscape or (2) my (not yet extant) photograph, is it not? – OJFord Aug 28 '19 at 22:35
  • And as I eluded to in parenthetical comment, my question holds for rhe descriptions 'my picture' and 'my picture' without any verb, or witth any besides 'take' too. – OJFord Aug 28 '19 at 23:46
  • I'm confused, in the 1st example is the picture supposed to be a "painting" as in "take my portrait"? I'm not sure I understand the reference to "passing a landscape". People and things are normally depicted in drawings, paintings, works of art etc. not so much in photos. "Take my photo" is a clearer example of what I think the question is asking. – Mari-Lou A Aug 31 '19 at 16:48
  • Possible duplicate of What kind of noun is 'picture', where John Lawler describes picture nouns in a specimen answer. – Edwin Ashworth Aug 31 '19 at 16:50
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    @Mari-LouA In the first example, he hands you a photograph of a landscape. In the second, he wants you to photograph him. – Lawrence Aug 31 '19 at 17:32
  • @Mari-LouA What do your photos depict, if not 'people and things'? – OJFord Aug 31 '19 at 17:34
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    @Lawrence I don't think I have ever heard anyone say or describe passing an image/photo/picture of a scene as "passing a landscape". I can walk past a particular landscape, and a landscape can pass by if I'm travelling... but I don't pass a landscape to someone, Do I? Whatever. Thanks for clearing up my confusion. – Mari-Lou A Aug 31 '19 at 17:38
  • @Mari-LouA It's quite common to refer to paintings and photographs of stretches of countryside as 'landscapes' and to pictures of people as 'portraits'. I think the OP is talking about 'passing' in the sense of 'handing over'. Of couse The portrait of Sir Thomas Moore by Hans Holbein in the Frick Collection is Thomas Moore's portrait, Holbein's portrait and The Frick Collection's portrait all at the same time. – BoldBen Aug 31 '19 at 18:22
  • @BoldBen At this point, the intended meaning and ambiguity of the OP's (passing a landscape) is more interesting :). If someone were to find themself in a picturesque location they might well ask a friend to "take a picture" (or paint a portrait, think “Mona Lisa”) with the landscape acting as a background drop. – Mari-Lou A Aug 31 '19 at 18:36
  • @Mari-LouA I (OP) used 'landscape' only as what I thought was a clear distinction from a portrait, and so it couldn't possibly be a picture or photograph of the speaker. Apologies that it wasn't clear! – OJFord Aug 31 '19 at 22:16
  • There are more than two interpretations. Picture nouns have their own grammar and semantics. – John Lawler Sep 01 '19 at 23:26
  • @JohnLawler Thanks for commenting, you seem to know a lot about this - I read your other answer linked above. Unfortunately all I've found on 'picture nouns' beside your answers here is your U.Mich. page on Ross Constaints and ... children's books of nouns with pictures! Can you link me to any further reading on 'their own grammar and semantics'? And is it only 'picture' that differs in meaning between the sentences; not the case of 'my' as I first suspected? Many thanks. – OJFord Sep 01 '19 at 23:42
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    I found a lot of literature on Google by searching for "picture noun" complement with quotes around picture noun to keep the phrase together. Interestingly, my answer here gets cited as an authoritative answer by Google. – John Lawler Sep 02 '19 at 00:03
  • I've just realized I misunderstood the question.( @Lawerence Thanks for that.) I thought he was saying 'Take a photograph (of the landscape we are passing through) with my camera. Perhaps that could be made clearer in the question. In any case John Lawler's picture nouns answers the main part. There is a double meaning in the phrase 'to take', but that now seems secondary. – S Conroy Sep 02 '19 at 13:59
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    I've changed 'passing' to 'handing over', and 'landscape' to 'frame' to hopefully make that more clear. – OJFord Sep 02 '19 at 15:37

2 Answers2

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The difference between the sentences is the meaning of the components, which may be determined from context. As Kris notes, the sentences are grammatically the same.

  • When presented with a photograph, "take" means to receive, and "my picture" is a picture you own.

  • When presented with a camera, "take" means to capture via camera, and "my picture" is a depiction of you.

What if you present someone with both a camera and a photograph?

  • You want the photograph you own to be captured on camera?

  • You want the photograph you own to be received and for your depiction to be captured on camera?

  • You want your depiction captured on camera to resemble the photograph?

  • You want to find out how someone will respond?

xiota
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  1. Take my picture [handing over a frame]
  2. Take my picture [handing over a camera]

*In fact the sentences are not grammatically the same, the second uses a pronoun to show connection with the image about to be taken, you cannot posses it as it does not exist yet. Additionally the contextual meanings of take are different as Kris pointed out in comments. Finally the status of Picture as a verb or noun in the first example could be argued. In which case it may or may not be a complete sentence. In fact the whole issue of the first example is wide open to debate.

Is it a picture of him that belongs to someone else?

Is it a picture of him that he owns?

Is it a picture of anything but him, which he owns?

Is it being given away? handed over ? exchanged?

Is it being given to someone to hold?

Is it being moved?

the first example possibly uses the Verb Take and Verb picture and my is possessive

take verb (HOLD) to move in order to hold something in the hand(s):

Can you take this bag while I open the door?

my determiner; of or belonging to me

Possibly...... picture verb [ T ] formal; He was pictured (= an artist had painted him) as a soldier in full uniform.

the second uses the Verb take and the Noun picture with the pronoun my.

take verb [ T ] (ACT) to do something:

I’ve started taking piano lessons.

my pronoun; belonging to or connected with me; the possessive form of I, used before a noun: Note.

My mind went absolutely blank.

picture noun (IMAGE) a drawing, painting, photograph, etc.:

I hate having my picture taken (= being photographed).

Note Falex Grammar's free dictionary includes my as a pronoun, but under the title Possessive Adjectives Free Dictionary

Possessive Adjectives / Pronominal Adjectives "Pronominal" describes something that resembles a pronoun, as by specifying a person, place, or thing, while functioning primarily as another part of speech. A pronominal adjective is an adjective that resembles a pronoun. "Her" in "her car" is a pronominal adjective.

ALL References Cambridge English Dictionary, unless other wise attributed

Brad
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