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I was surprised to learn, recently, that various online rhyming dictionaries do not consider "bounce" and "counts" to be perfect rhymes. See, for example, here and here.

At the same time, when I say these words as a native American-English speaker, I cannot detect any difference whatsoever in their pronunciation. The "t" in the phoneme "nts" seems to drop out entirely -- but if so, why are these words not true rhymes?

Doubt
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  • Look in an (American) dictionary to verify whether the "t" drops out. And report what you found in your question. Ohterwise, the question may be closed... Well, I tried that, but found only pronunciation of "count" not "counts". – GEdgar Oct 05 '19 at 21:41
  • It's not clear what you think the pronunciations are. Are you really saying that counts is pronounced with no /t/ at all? – Andrew Leach Oct 05 '19 at 21:41
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    @Doubt I think your first link should be http://www.rhymezone.com/r/rhyme.cgi?Word=bounce&org1=syl&org2=l&org3=y&typeofrhyme=perfect – Old Brixtonian Oct 05 '19 at 21:50
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    @Andrew Are you really saying 'ounce' sounds different from 'ounts'? I think they are indistinguishable from each other. – Old Brixtonian Oct 05 '19 at 21:53
  • @oldbrix It can in certain circumstances. But I'm rather more interested in clarifying the OP's question than answering others. Which /t/ drops out completely? The one in counts or bounce? – Andrew Leach Oct 05 '19 at 22:04
  • Regardless of whether you drop the /t/ in counts or add a [t] in bounce, t-clipping is a phonological process that takes place before such euphonic deletions and insertions, so you should still have a clipped vowel in counts and an unclipped vowel in bounce, and that distinguishes them. At least that’s how it is for me. – Janus Bahs Jacquet Oct 05 '19 at 22:19
  • @JanusBahsJacquet Isn’t that the same thing that makes writer have a clippier diphthong than rider has? – tchrist Oct 05 '19 at 22:43
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    The 't' doesn't drop here for me in the UK (RP). – Michael Harvey Oct 05 '19 at 22:56
  • @tchrist Yes, for speakers who don’t neutralise /t/ and /d/ entirely in the sequence diphthong + C + schwa. Write and ride are different everywhere, but writer/rider only to some speakers. – Janus Bahs Jacquet Oct 05 '19 at 23:18
  • @JanusBahsJacquet I have the same flap after it, but the first diphthong is shorter and higher due to “Canadian” raising. Nothing else differs. People don't understand that dictionaries don't really show pronunciations. – tchrist Oct 05 '19 at 23:21
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    (When I say “neutralise /t/ and /d/ entirely”, I mean neutralise them at a deeper, phonological level, before clipping sets in, so that the diphthongs end up being identical as well. Some US dialects do that before schwa, and I think some Australian dialects as well. Neutralising the actual consonant sounds at the surface level, after clipping has applied, is much more widespread.) – Janus Bahs Jacquet Oct 05 '19 at 23:46
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    I'm with you in that one may rhyme them, but "ounce" and "ounts" certainly don't sound identical to me. – Misha R Oct 06 '19 at 02:36
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    To me "ounce" and "ounts" sound exactly the same. Am I not listening carefully enough, or is it simply that, in my region, they are indeed pronounced the same? – Doubt Oct 06 '19 at 03:24
  • So are you saying you drop the /t/ in ounts or put it in in ounce? (Back to my original question) – Andrew Leach Oct 06 '19 at 07:42
  • It's worth looking at similar situation. 'lumps','links','mounds', 'tombs' (I'm having a hard time finding the 'lums' alternatives, most come out to be plurals where the 's' is voiced'). I pronounce the p and k, but not the d or b (but without s, the b in 'mb' is not pronounced anyway). All that said, I personally can't imagine any kind of difference between '-ounts' and '-ounce'. – Mitch Oct 06 '19 at 14:46
  • Related. – tchrist Nov 22 '22 at 23:23
  • The T (or D) matters more when there are two words that have to be distinguished, like puns and punts, or bills and builds. If an “ount” was something having, we’d all want to hear it clearly. –  Nov 23 '22 at 00:08
  • I say don't let it bother you. Imperfect rhymes are still legitimate if they are pleasing, so even if you do pronounce bounce and counts such that they don't rhyme perfectly, it's not going to matter. I've seen far worse rhymes. – Kef Schecter Nov 22 '22 at 22:52

4 Answers4

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Rhyme is based on phonemic form. "Counts" is phonemically /kawnts/, while "bounce" is /bawns/. They don't end the same way, so they don't rhyme.

The pronunciations of /ns/ and /nts/, as opposed to the phonemics, overlap, since the difference between the phonetic [ns] and [nts] is a rather delicate matter of timing the dropping of the velum to let air pass out the nose. The two words can end the same in pronunciation, but phonemes govern perception. The ends of the words still sound different.

Greg Lee
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    You say that "The two words can end the same in pronunciation, [yet] the ends of the words still sound different." Can you clarify how this is possible? – Doubt Oct 06 '19 at 03:23
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    I think you left out an n in /kawnts/. Also, I wonder whether awareness of phonemes governs differing perceptions of count center vs counts enter based on contextual clues for which pair is the more likely in a given utterance. – tchrist Oct 06 '19 at 03:54
  • @tchrist, Thanks, I supplied the n. The [s] of "center" is in syllable onset and hence fortis, while the [s] of "counts" is in syllable offset and hence lenis. – Greg Lee Oct 06 '19 at 14:21
  • @Doubt, Pronunciation in linguistics refers to more than just how something sounds. It is judged by articulation and by acoustic instruments or other measurement devices as well. How something sounds to an English speaker and how a linguist transcribes it will often differ. – Greg Lee Oct 06 '19 at 14:57
  • People are certainly aware that "count" has a /t/ at the end, so this probably influences pronunciation of "counts". Personally, I think if stressing the word I'd be sure to pronounce the /t/ distinctly but in casual speech it's more likely to be weakened or even disappear. – Stuart F Nov 23 '22 at 09:48
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As John Lawler says, in practice the two words sound the same.

Rhyme used to be judged entirely by ear, but online dictionaries use rules and analysis instead. So their definition of a perfect rhyme may differ from the average person's.

If you insert a t-sound into ounce, without slowing down, you end up with. . . ounce! (And it's perfectly pronountsed!) You can separate the last two letters of counts to make the t audible, but in normal speech we don't.

Poets and lyricists use rhymes like counts/ounce with a happy disregard for the velic flap. Wordsworth, Browning and Tennyson used near rhymes like love-move, suns-bronze-once and creature-nature, which no rhyming dictionary would allow.

Walker's Rhyming Dictionary of the English Language - "devised for the rhymer, not the phonetician" - is a 'backwards dictionary'. It badly needs updating and is tricky to master but it does at least leave it to the reader to decide which word suits his/her purpose.

Old Brixtonian
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They sound verrry similar - but, there is a subtle difference. (I'm talking about UK English. I'm from London.)

And subtle differences are important in poetry.

Bounce - ends with a softer 's' sound. Like the 's' in 'secular'.

Whereas, counts, having the 't' and 's' on the end, becomes that harder, more 'zzz' buzzy sound. Like the ts in 'tsar'.

I'd be a bit like 'er whar's that?' It would grate on my ear a bit.

I might, as a poet and songwriter, feel a bit short-changed, if presented with 'bounce' rhyming with 'counts' in a poem.

I'd feel more fulfilled if bounce rhymed with 'trounce', or 'pounce' or 'ounce'.

If 'counts' rhymed with 'amounts', 'founts' or 'mounts', I would also feel quite satisfied. But it depends...

Which word is best to use as a rhyme depends on the artistic work. You can get away with dodgy rhymes - if the words in the whole sentence and the words around it, hang together in a way that sounds pleasing to the ear. And/or is intetesting/makes sense.

Sometimes the use of a particular non,-fitting rhyme is humourous, or alludes to something else, mentioned earlier. Or has a double meaning. All of which can allow you to get away with it.

His countenance was just, but his hair was all mussed, as with a single bounced thrust, he undid his truss, 'for have you I must!: - the words burst out in a gust. .

And then, on all counts, in varied amounts, on dour countenances he bounced, the taxable amounts, as arguments were trounced, yielding... much poorer counts.

The 'counts' are noble Counts as well as 'sums of money' in my example.

Jelila
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The ball sped sweetly to the net,
without a single bounce,
A cup o’ cha, while V.A.R.
decides if the goal counts.

I think I’d have to rule that offside.

David
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