2

On the math site, I wrote: "English learned in the 1950s in the corn belt is different from that spoken by a 20 year old New Yorker." My question is does this have any basis in truth? I think it does, but I am not a linguist or a mathematician, for that matter.

I have traveled in the US, Europe, South America and Asia. Where ever English is spoken it seems common to hear that the speaker uses either American English or British English. There are also often discussion about people from the North and those from the South not understanding each others speech. I grew up in Indiana in the 1940s and 50s. There are expressions used there now that I do not recognize. I know what they mean, but they were not part of the language that I learned. English sentences are translated in to logic sentences. If English and logic are consistent languages, then, in theory, there is path from the English sentence to the logic sentence. If so, then the logic sentence I write should look much like the logic sentence someone else writes. It often does not, however.

Some examples of English sentences to be translated in to logic sentences.

"To limit the loss of our company, not only the economical and statistical researches are necessary, but also a change in our spending patterns."

For all integers x, there is some integer y such that if x≠0, then xy=1.

“no two robots love exactly the same set of cats.”

"no two robots love the same cat,"

"if robot R loves cat C, and robot X is a different robot, then X does not love cat C."

I realize that these are made examples for teaching, but instead of learning how to express an English sentence using logic symbols I seem to be learning someting about how untangle convoluted or nonsensical English sentences. It is fun, but not contributing much to my understanding of propositional logic. I was, in looking for these examples, able to eliminate changes in word meaning and phrases used from my question. If two people hear the same words and understand them completely, but produce different "results", then that is another issue.

Forgive me if I have not been clear. I will gladly accept suggestions to help make my question more clear.

  • 1
    "If English and logic are consistent languages..." As you have observed, English is not a consistent language and it also continually evolves. Perhaps you could include specific examples of logic phrased in English. – Weather Vane Mar 15 '20 at 18:58
  • You ask "...does this have any basis in truth? " The answer is "It depends what you mean by "learned" - learned at school or from the family and friends? - and "different" as it depends on how different you think it is." The English of both places and times is "English". Obviously, there are words that exist now that did not then, and there are phrases that were used then that are not now. Stronger accents have tended to lessen as well. – Greybeard Mar 15 '20 at 19:20
  • @WeatherVane, Great idea. I had avoided it because I thought it could lead to too much math. I will gather some examples. –  Mar 15 '20 at 20:29
  • Outside the scope of your question, but the sayings of Will Rogers provide a great contrast between English as spoken by cowboys and English as spoken in New York. Roger performed a cowboy show in New York, but it gradually morphed into a stand up comedy. – Walter Mitty Mar 15 '20 at 20:29
  • 4
    I would think even English spoken in New York in the 1950s was different to that spoken there in 2020. – nnnnnn Mar 15 '20 at 20:52
  • As WeatherVane suggested, I added some examples to the end of my question. –  Mar 15 '20 at 21:14
  • Which borough in New York? – Hot Licks Mar 15 '20 at 21:51
  • @Greybeard, Would it be more accurate to ask about a dialect of English? I am more concerned about words that have changed meaning since I learned them in school in the 50s. I might not even know that the change exists until I try to use a word and am not understood. Worse, I do not understand an author and I think I do based on my knowledge. Perhaps that is not a language issue. –  Mar 15 '20 at 22:06
  • Do you want to ask about how English has changed across different times and places, or about "logic sentences"? These are two unrelated questions and should be in separate posts. – CJ Dennis Mar 16 '20 at 04:39
  • @CJDennis, Sentence logic is exactly what I am studying now. It appears to be taught in part by providing examples examples of English sentences to be translated to a logic sentence. I suspect that part of the trouble I have with the process is regional or temporal changes in language. I do not know how I could ever resolve my learning issue if I keep the two subjects separate. –  Mar 16 '20 at 11:10
  • How do you think "no two robots love the same cat" has different meanings? I can't think of any English variant where it would be different. I speak Australian English, so you would think that any difference that existed would be greater. – CJ Dennis Mar 16 '20 at 20:32
  • @CJDennis, That particular sentence may not cause a problem. What I am seeing often is the attempt after attempt to "explain" why logical connectives behave as they do. Some of the examples, and I have read dozens, make little or no sense to me. I believe I am reasonably intelligent and am looking for the cause of my not understanding. I do not want to come to the conclusion that I am just too old. –  Mar 16 '20 at 20:41
  • @CJDennis, I also have an issue with just what "no two robots love the same cat" means. That may be putting a smoke screen up in fornt of what I am trying to learn. –  Mar 16 '20 at 20:52
  • @GeoGraphy "no two robots love the same cat" means "each cat is loved by exactly zero or one robot". – CJ Dennis Mar 16 '20 at 21:26
  • @CJDennis, Doesn't that imply that robots love and that they do love cats? Neither of those concepts have a connection to the real world. That connection might not be necessary, but it sure would be easier to manage a translation to logic. Can robots love cats? If so, can two robots love the same set of cats? Does not make much sense to me. –  Mar 16 '20 at 22:02
  • Let us continue this discussion in chat. – CJ Dennis Mar 16 '20 at 22:14

1 Answers1

2

Given the history of cats and the robots who love them I think you have answered your own question. “no two robots love exactly the same set of cats.” "no two robots love the same cat,"

Since a set of one or zero cats is indeed a set then statements A and B can contribute to the syllogism you may be trying to work out.

What the comments and your question make clear is that English is a varied experience across the country, indeed across the world. When you find regional differences or oddities in expressions you should feel free to leave them out of your examples.

Logic like other areas of math are best simplified by sticking with almost childishly simple examples. This is why we go with X and Y so often. No personalities, no history, no broken hearts. Local slang would confuse the student by masking the meaning of the relationships you are trying to elucidate.

Imagine replacing love with hate in a few of your sentences. Carefully and with equivalent meanings in place. Then imagine that the reader does not know that they are opposites, or perhaps what they mean at all. This is the bind you are putting them into.

Stay with simple word choices that do not vary from country folk to city folk. Once the lessons are learned then they will be ready for the big city.

Elliot
  • 200
  • 1
    Worth pointing out that the opposite of love is not hate but indifference. – Elliot Mar 16 '20 at 06:00
  • These are not examples I created. Instead, they are examples given to me or students to assist in learning how to translate them into sentence logic. The three lines about robots and cats generate three different sentences. –  Mar 16 '20 at 11:04