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When you're talking about how you were mistaken in the past, but this fact you were mistaken about is not about something in the past. "I thought 'red' was called 'orange'" "I thought 'red' is called 'orange'"

user84614
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  • What is an eternal fact? – John Lawler May 26 '22 at 01:27
  • @John Lawler A fact about what something intrinsically is, not what it was for some duration – user84614 May 30 '22 at 16:49
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    I see, I think. You want to know when to use past tense in indirect speech when talking about something that's still true. It's just a construction, like I wish I was when you really mean you wish you are. Tenses don't mean much in English and they're rarely noticed, except by English teachers with too much time on their hands. – John Lawler May 30 '22 at 17:11
  • @John Lawler Wouldn't that be a technically incorrect variant of "I wish I were" – user84614 Jun 03 '23 at 03:32
  • That would be a variant of I wish I were. There is no such thing as "technically correct" when it comes to grammar. Either you're understood or you're not. If you're not, you're incorrect, technically. Otherwise it's just another variant, and there are millions of them. – John Lawler Jun 03 '23 at 16:02
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    Although 'He didn't know where New Jersey was' and 'He didn't know where New Jersey is' are both acceptable and nigh on identical in meaning, while 'He didn't know where his brother was' and 'He didn't know where his brother is' are both available with possibly different meanings, 'I thought the name of this colour [pointing] is vermilion' sounds unnatural to my ears. – Edwin Ashworth Jul 26 '23 at 10:58

2 Answers2

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A slightly simpler example.

I used to think the sky is green --> At some point in the past, I believed that the statement "the sky is green" is true, but I no longer believe that. Now I believe that the sky is not green.

I used to think the sky was green. --> At some point in the past, I believed that the statement "the sky was green at some point in time but is no longer green" was true, but I no longer believe that. Now I don't believe the sky was ever green.

As you can see, both statements are grammatical, but their meanings depend on what the author is trying to say. So, the answer to your question concerning whether you should use red was called orange or red is called orange depends on what you're trying to say, on exactly what it was you used to think.

Community
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Richard Kayser
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  • Thank you--for some reason people in my area use "was" even for the first case. – user84614 Jun 05 '20 at 19:04
  • @user84614 I edited the answer a little to make the logic more parallel. BTW, I would consider both statements -- the sky was green (at some point in the past) and the sky is green -- to be "universal facts", or not. – Richard Kayser Jun 05 '20 at 19:14
  • For example: "I thought you said you were smart?" Referring to when they said they are smart rather than when they said they were smart. – user84614 May 25 '22 at 23:24
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The confusion is caused by

1) The English subjunctive mood (used for conditions contrary to fact*) is very often identical with the simple past tense.

2) English speakers use the subjunctive less frequently than do speakers of most other languages so we're less comfortable forming and decoding it.

"I thought the sky was green" --> "was" is in subjunctive mood, i.e. condition contrary to fact.

Similarly,

"I always treat you as if you were a nice guy!" means that the equation between the listener and nice guy was contrary to fact. ("As if" often introduces a clause in the subjunctive)

JohnBarnes
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  • I wouldn't know what "I always treat you as if you were a nice guy!" means even as a native speaker. "I always treat you as if you're a nice guy!" ("I always treat you as if you are a nice guy!" or "I always treated you as if you were a nice guy!" would make sense, though in different ways. – user84614 Dec 19 '21 at 14:27
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    After doing some research on the subject I learned that "was" is past tense and "were" is subjunctive, although "was" is sometimes mistakenly used for the latter. So should it properly be "I thought 'red' were called 'orange" or "I used to think 'red' were called 'orange'"? That sounds wrong though. – user84614 Dec 19 '21 at 14:30