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L7 (meaning boring, dull) could come from one of two sources,

  1. In the (say) 1950s folks would make hand-symbols in the air. (There's a retro example of this in the movie Pulp Fiction for example.) If you do an L and a 7 it's a "square" symbol. Could be L7 came from those "50s style" hand symbols.

  2. On a (I suppose) computer, or just in paper typesetting, "L7" looks like a square. Could be L7 came from typesetting / letter shapes.

Regarding 2, one would think it would be more like only in the computer/SMS era (perhaps from, say, 1990 onwards at the earliest) - however it may have been based on plain writing or typesetting. Regarding 1, I really don't know when "hand symbol squares and similar" was first a thing ("the 50s" was a wild guess; could be much earlier or later).

Regarding L7, the earliest reference I know of is

1964

in the song Wooly Bully.

Does anyone have any firm actual references on whether "1" or "2" is the origin?

or indeed an earlier reference?

Please note that there are any number of online mentions of BOTH explanations. For example on the "wikipedia" page, some person has typed that L7 is a hand shape. This is completely unsourced and, just someone typing. (Actually FWIW I'll remove it from wikipedia just now, since it's totally unsourced.)

You can find any number of mentions on the net of folks who think one or the other.

Does anyone have any sourced firm early explanations or references; or perhaps an earlier usage than 1964?

Note that for example Green's dictionary says it is the (written, typed) letters L7 (but indeed they mention it can be "accompanied by" the hand shape). So unfortunately, absolutely no information there about origins or dates, only a description.

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Fattie
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  • According to Wikipedia, the slang term "square" for boring/dull/conventional originated in the 1940s. So the hand/typographical symbol has to date from after then. – Peter Shor Nov 07 '20 at 14:12
  • @Peter I cant't find a definitive etymology for 'square' = unhip; it just could be that L7 came first. – Edwin Ashworth Nov 07 '20 at 14:20
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    @EdwinAshworth: Square apparently originated among jazz musicians. My guess: square referred to the unhip beat of unsyncopated 4/4 music. From Google books, 1946 (snippet view): They danced to the big square beat of dance-hall bands , and made sticky their fingers with syrupy popcorn , candy spun like foam , orange juice dyed vermilion. – Peter Shor Nov 07 '20 at 14:26
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    @Fattie How is this different from your earlier question? FYI, the online Green does have origins and dates, as quoted in answers to your other question. You need to click on "Show all" next to the Quotations heading. – Andrew Leach Nov 07 '20 at 15:05
  • OT for L7 but there is an idiom on the square. Perhaps there is a parallel with the more recent term straight, which also means 'honest'. The term straight is applied by drug takers to those who don't, and some 40s jazz musicians were drug users too. – Weather Vane Nov 07 '20 at 18:25
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    ... and I would guess it comes from a hand signal, not typography. Two guys look at a third person, one makes the L7 gesture, and the other nods. – Weather Vane Nov 07 '20 at 18:30
  • @WeatherVane , right, but the question is about hard factual info - which, this web site often comes up with – Fattie Nov 07 '20 at 21:43
  • @PeterShor .. term "square" originated in the 1940s ... man, do you have any cold hards facts for that? Note that I assume the same thing. Regarding such a key linguistic element, there just has to be a wealth of hard real references on this. – Fattie Nov 07 '20 at 21:44
  • @Fattie well that's as well to say, since this site is littered with your OT remarks. – Weather Vane Nov 07 '20 at 21:45
  • (Ah wait - you give wiki as a reference? Lol dude ) – Fattie Nov 07 '20 at 21:45
  • @AndrewLeach - it simply does not. Please show me where it gives any origin info, if so? Thanks man – Fattie Nov 07 '20 at 21:46
  • Weather ... "some 40s jazz musicians were drug users" That would be like saying "the sun is slightly hot" or "politicians occasionally lie". Heh! – Fattie Nov 07 '20 at 21:46
  • @Fattie: If you don't like Wikipedia, how about the OED? Is that cold and hard enough for you? "Designating one who is out of touch with the ideas and conventions of a particular popular contemporary movement (originally Jazz); conventional, old-fashioned. Formerly opposed to hep adj. Also of things. slang (originally U.S.)." The earliest citation they give is 1946: B. Treadwell Big Bk. of Swing. Square, not versed in Swing, puritanical. – Peter Shor Nov 07 '20 at 22:10
  • @Fattie I already have: see my earlier comment. I don't see how this question is different from your other question about L7. Since this question is better, and the answers on the other one answer this one, they probably ought to be merged in this direction. If you want to keep the questions separate, make them sufficiently different. – Andrew Leach Nov 08 '20 at 08:37
  • Related: What is the origin and meaning of “to be a square”?; What is the meaning of “to look like a square”?; Why do you say “square” in “Be there or be square”?. – JEL Nov 08 '20 at 23:46

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