6

Can all country names be pluralised in English?

There are some countries which have a plural form, although such name is, for obvious reasons, not used - for example, Sicily - Sicilies (I know Sicily is not a country & the reason it has a plural form of its name), Malta - Maltas, Italy - Italies, America - Americas.

If so, what would the plural name of 'France' be? Frances doesn't seem correct.

Al-cameleer
  • 621
  • 20
    What use are you trying to make of plural country names? – KillingTime Oct 03 '21 at 16:15
  • 3
    Actually, Sicilies and Americas are words that do have a use. The names of most countries, as well as regions, islands, mountains, etc., however, have no plural, because there is no need for it: each of them is a proper name of something that can't be replicated. – jsw29 Oct 03 '21 at 16:21
  • 8
    To suggest that one country (or one's experience in one country) is actually different for one person than it is for another, @killingtime, if that makes sense. "There are two Sicilies", for example, "and my Sicily is different from yours." – Al-cameleer Oct 03 '21 at 16:23
  • 20
    Frances seems just right to me. – Jim Oct 03 '21 at 17:16
  • 18
    Out of context, hardly anybody would understand Frances (it looks like a woman's name). In context, it makes perfect sense. – Colin Fine Oct 03 '21 at 18:02
  • 2
    The Tzar of all the Russias ... One could argue for spelling Italys not Italies. – GEdgar Oct 03 '21 at 19:35
  • @GEdgar I've added book titles with both spellings, Italys and Italies – DjinTonic Oct 03 '21 at 19:48
  • 1
    @ColinFine - Sous ce titre piquant, les Deux Frances, un écrivain suisse, M. Paul Seippel, a publié un livre qui touche à bien des questions actuelles... (1906) – Michael Harvey Oct 03 '21 at 20:17
  • @MichaelHarvey et ceci appartient à une question posée à ELU comment exactement ? – Colin Fine Oct 03 '21 at 22:36
  • 8
    Americas refers to the two continents with that name in their title, not to countries. – user207421 Oct 04 '21 at 01:03
  • 1
    'There are two Solomon Islands' is a bit dodgy. – Edwin Ashworth Oct 04 '21 at 11:35
  • 3
    @KillingTime there are two Frances in one set of borders: the France that cooks with butter and the France that uses olive oil – Chris H Oct 04 '21 at 11:58
  • @ColinFine if ouy were publishing an English translation of that book, what would you call it? The concept works equally well in both languages (Review in English here, BTW, for those who haven't come across it before, like me) – Chris H Oct 04 '21 at 12:01
  • I would pluralizes the S things with es: Two Netherlandses, Two Bahama Islandses, It looks funny, but it's a funny situation. – Maverick Oct 04 '21 at 13:51
  • 1
    @Maverick I can't help thinking of Gollum and his eggses in that case – Chris H Oct 04 '21 at 14:49
  • 1
    The show Northern Exposure took place in a (fictional) town called, Sicily, Alaska. So if you were to compare this to the Italian island, you might refer to "the two Sicilies". In reality, there are in fact other Sicilies in the US, in Illinois, Louisiana, and Nebraska. – Darrel Hoffman Oct 04 '21 at 17:23
  • @user207421 Nevertheless, it would be quite idiomatic to say "There are two Americas today - the vaccinated and the unvaccinated" – Azor Ahai -him- Oct 04 '21 at 22:21
  • 3
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_of_the_Two_Sicilies Just for reference, since it has only been mentioned implicitly up to now and maybe some commenters are not aware that it was a thing. – Federico Poloni Oct 05 '21 at 06:13
  • There are prima facie more Google hits for "two Frances" than there are for "two Englands". (Interestingly, my spell-checker has flagged 'Englands' while it's thankfully happy with 'Frances'.) – Edwin Ashworth Oct 31 '23 at 13:11

4 Answers4

41

Can't we always form a plural for a place/country that isn't already a plural, like The Bahamas or the Netherlands? Suppose I want to say There are really two Xs: the one the tourists see and the one I will tell you about.

Note that two plural spellings appear to be in use for some countries ending in y.

I have sometimes been tempted to think that, as the mythologists make mention of three Jupiters, so there must be at least two Englands. In her past history, I have observed indications of a compound nature as diverse as her twofold language; and in recent times they seem to contend for mastery. It is with one only that I have to do at present. Aubrey De Vere; English Misrule and Irish Misdeeds (1848)

Cold and sea will train an imperial Saxon race, which nature cannot bear to lose, and after cooping it up for a thousand years in yonder England, gives a hundred Englands, a hundred Mexicos. All the bloods it shall absorb and domineer: and more than Mexicos, the secrets of water and steam, the spasms of electricity, the ductility of metals, the chariot of the air, the ruddered balloon are awaiting you. Ralph Waldo Emerson; Conduct for Life (1860)

"There are two Frances, and theirs is the bad one"—Bishop of Amiens, 1895
Robert Tombs; France 1814-1914

There have always, he argues, been two Frances, one turning its face to the sea, dreaming of free trade and distant adventures, and the other, the France of the land, stuck-in-the-mud and embedded in inflexible constrains. F. Braudel; Civilization and Capitalism, 15th-18th Century, Vol. III

A century ago, the red and the black referred to the struggle between two Frances, one anticlerical, socialist, universalist; the other Catholic, conservative, nationalist. B. E. Brown; Protest in Paris

In Portugal this same fundamental split between liberals and conservatives was present, even though its expressions were not quite so bloody.
From the eighteenth century onward, therefore, two Spains and two Portugals grew up. Howard J. Wiarda; Iberia and Latina America

Mary Fulbrook; Interpretations of the Two Germanies, 1945-1990 (2000)

Roy E. H. Mellor The Two Germanies: A Modern Geography (1978)

Christopher Hilton; After the Berlin Wall: Putting Two Germanys Back Together Again (2009)

Frank E. Manual; The Two Spains (1956)

McKinsey Global Institute and E. Bolio; A Tale of Two Mexicos (2014)

Joseph Luzzi; My Two Italies (2014)

H. L. Mathews; A Tale of Two Italys (2019)

M. Dunford and L. Greco; After the Three Italies: Wealth, Inequality and Industrial Change (2011)

An illustration of this front dynamic with Dutch populism is the 'Two Netherlands' speech of Geert Wilders at the Budget Review of 2009:

"The realm of Blakenende is a kingdom of two Netherlands...On the one hand our elite, with their so-called ideals. Of a multicultrual society, the mega-high taxes, the lunatic climate hysteria...The other Netherlands consists of the people that have to pay the bill, literally and figuratively."
R. Wodak et al.; Right-Wing Populism in Europe

We do the same for other names. I know two Charleys and two Charlies. Mr. and Mrs. Brown (and their children) are the Browns even though that's not their last name. We say neither *two Italy nor *all the Brown.

DjinTonic
  • 21,299
  • 1
    Philip III (“the Prudent”) was King of all the Spains (Castile, Aragon, Valencia, Navarre, Galicia, Portugal, Leon and Catalonia). – Michael Harvey Oct 03 '21 at 20:18
  • 3
    We might distinguish a geographic and a figurative plural. Then we have alternate worlds: the Canadas on Earth I and Earth II. – DjinTonic Oct 03 '21 at 20:29
  • Thank you very much, @DjinTonic. – Al-cameleer Oct 04 '21 at 07:06
  • 1
    @MichaelHarvey: The Russian tsars also styled themselves "Emperor of All The Russias". – Michael Seifert Oct 04 '21 at 16:53
  • It'd be nice if language had evolved so that all the Brown were correct, just so we could have prevented the use of all the Brown's – David K Oct 04 '21 at 18:22
  • This does make wonder, how do you talk about two Netherlands? two the Netherlands? the two Netherlands? Netherlandses? Netherlandsen? Netherlodes? – Jasper Oct 05 '21 at 10:29
  • 1
    @Jasper Two Netherlands – example added. – DjinTonic Oct 05 '21 at 12:01
  • Oddly, two Netherlands sounds right enough, but if I wanted to do the same for the Bahamas, I would naturally say, “In a way, there are two Bahamases”. But never with the Netherlands or the Philippines or the Seychelles, etc. The US is a particularly interesting case – “two United States” sounds wrong (because we all know there are 50), but “two United Stateses” would only be admissible if your name is Gollum. – Janus Bahs Jacquet Oct 05 '21 at 21:00
  • 1
    There are actually two United States -- U.S. of A and U.S. of Mexico. – DjinTonic Oct 05 '21 at 22:17
  • 2
    It should be noted that the plurals in some of the examples are used in a non-figurative sense. "The Two Germanies, 1945-1990" were in fact two very different countries. – not2savvy Oct 06 '21 at 15:54
  • Yes, which could also apply to Vichy and Free France. – DjinTonic Oct 06 '21 at 16:07
  • It might also be worth noting that British coins used to have the legend BRITT:OMN: (Britanniarum omnium, of all the Britains) -- the doubled T in BRITT signalling the plural. It was referring to all the countries of the Empire. – Andrew Leach Aug 18 '23 at 13:50
  • I'd prefer 'There are two Bahamas'; context will disambiguate. But '... two Saint Kitts and Nevises'. I'm going to rephrase with 'Comoros' and 'Marshall Islands'. And 'Mexicos' sounds better than it looks. // Summing up ... no real rule. – Edwin Ashworth Oct 31 '23 at 13:16
  • @EdwinAshworth OK, thank you. – DjinTonic Oct 31 '23 at 14:13
13

In addition to the "two Frances" use, the use of plurals for synecdoche, representing ad-hoc groups of countries by referring to some of their members, is not uncommon.

"As we look to the world reopening and travel resuming, the Italies and Frances are a little behind Israel in terms of when we anticipate travel will reopen. And that's due to vaccines," said Brian Znotins, vice president of network and schedule planning at American Airlines (AAL.O), referring to two other tourist destinations. (Israel targets tourism boost after rapid COVID-19 vaccine roll-out, Steven Scheer, Reuters)

There are not enough Canadas and Australias to fix the problems that Brexit will bring to the British people ("Britain Shouldn’t Put Its Money on a Post-Brexit Rapprochement With Africa", Oluwatosin Adeshokan, Foreign Policy)

The problem of financial irresponsibility and widespread dishonesty by the rich and powerful suggests a need to regulate the Andorras, Liechtensteins and Panamas, the "don't ask because we won't tell" havens which shelter vast sums from the tax collectors and which disappear the ill-gotten gains of corrupt officials and elites (Economic Governance in the Age of Globalization, p378-379, William K. Tabb, Columbia University Press, 2004)

An Iceland, a Switzerland, or a Sweden will be thrilled when they win against an England, a Spain, or an Italy because your Englands and Spains and Italies are either favourites to challenge for trophies, or at least they're legitimately trying to become teams that can challenge for trophies (forum post, "BestOf")

Less developed countries ‘have to stand up to the Chinas, Indias and Brazils”, Neal Leary

The WTO offers a robust rules-based framework to manage global trading relationships. It offers a chance to integrate the emerging economies – not just the Indias and Brazils and Chinas of this world, but also the weakest and most vulnerable developing countries – into the global trading system ("Trade and the NZ Dairy Industry", speech, Phil Goff, New Zealand Minister of Foreign Affairs and Trade)

The Uruguays, Japans, Fijis, and Samoas of this world need to be cherished for what their bring to the sport, not dismissed as mere canon fodder for the elite dining at the top table. ("World Rugby should cherish the tier-two nations, not belittle them", Ovalmauls)

They're trying to catch up with the Canadas and Japans of the world ("The world's CO2 emissions fell in 2015. But don't celebrate just yet.", Brad Plumer, Vox)

In this usage, the implication is "this country and others like it", providing one or two representative examples to represent the entire set of countries similar on whatever axis is being used.

Michael Homer
  • 233
3

For most speakers, metaphorical There are two Frances (two versions of the country called France) is probably indistinguishable from There are two Franceses (two people called Frances), but in context it's unlikely there would ever be any confusion. And the links into Google Books show that both versions are in use.

But there's another rather less contrived aspect to consider when pluralising Italy, Hungary, etc. To me, it's obvious that proper names ending in Y should just have an s appended (so it's three Hail Marys, not three Hail Maries). But apparently not all writers see this as such an obvious aspect of English syntax / orthography...

enter image description here

I can't explain1 why so many of my fellow countrymen don't apply the same principle to the name Italy that they do to Kennedy (that link shows two Kennedies is virtually unknown by comparison with two Kennedys).

1 Per comment from Chris, perhaps some people are being "misguidedly" influenced by country / countries with Italys / Italies. It's also worth noting that C19 texts massively favour two Germanies, whereas C20 usage is more or less evenly split. At least more people are gradually coming to recognise that country names shouldn't be arbitrarily tinkered with for the sake of misapplied syntax rules.

EDIT: It's just been pointed out to me that there's a Kansas City in Kansas and "another" one in Missouri. I've no idea why people were so motivated refer to both of them collectively in the 40s and 50s - but as you can see from this NGram, they usually did so as the Kansas Citys.

FumbleFingers
  • 140,184
  • 45
  • 294
  • 517
  • Interesting observation. It makes me wonder whether, in practice as opposed to (your) theory, there's a difference between the plurals of proper names of people and of countries. For Germany (of which there were of course two quite recently) the ratio is close to 1:1, with --ies slightly ahead until a reversal in 2006 (perhaps country-> countries) has something to do with it – Chris H Oct 04 '21 at 12:04
  • 1
    No, I don't think there's any defensible "principle" underpinning the difference between countries and people here. The *Italys / Italies* distinction is quite extreme, but more people get it "right" with two Hungarys, for example. But I could easily believe that at least some of the people who get it "wrong" (by my lights) are being misled by extrapolation from *country / countries*. – FumbleFingers Oct 04 '21 at 12:39
  • I'm inclined to agree, especially as there aren't enough examples to spot a trend (most countries ending --y are irrelevant, like Turkey, Uruguay, etc.; ngrams can't find Vatican Cit[y|ie]s at all) – Chris H Oct 04 '21 at 12:41
  • 2
    I think Vatican City is a special case Even I can't really get my head around *two Vatican Citys. But there are a handful of references to [two Vatican Cities](https://www.google.com/search?tbm=bks&q=%22two+Vatican+Cities%22) in Google Books, and I'm not gonna argue with that* orthography! – FumbleFingers Oct 04 '21 at 12:57
  • 1
    I suspected that like the Two Frances in the comments, there was a contrast between two communities in the same space - and I was right for one hit, but the other provides an interesting alternative use - that of "Vatican City" as a unit of area. – Chris H Oct 04 '21 at 13:00
  • For us Brits, the two standard "large sizes" for comparisons are A brontosaurus was bigger than a whale** and that iceberg is bigger than Wales**. We don't do "Vatican City" as a metaphoric unit of area. – FumbleFingers Oct 04 '21 at 13:38
  • 1
    I'm actually in Wales at the moment! (but live in England). Don't forget the football pitch (soccer to foreigners and only to foreigners) and the double-decker bus for area and volume/mass respectively. I'm not sure, from the very limited hits, anyone really uses Vatican City for size comparison. Instead I suspect someone found an area and looked at a list of land areas on Wikipedia. Incidentally the conversion is about 41 kiloVaticans to the Wales. – Chris H Oct 04 '21 at 13:45
  • 1
    There's no shame in going to Wales occasionally, to see how the other half live. I think football pitches (or is it rugby pitches? :) are just a subdivision unit of Wales (like Satoshis are a subdivision unit of Bitcoin). – FumbleFingers Oct 04 '21 at 14:44
  • Rugby (union) pitches are a subdivision of Wales, while football pitches are a subdivision of England, except Lancashire and Cheshire where you have to convert to rugby league pitches! And I come here most days, for my sins. – Chris H Oct 04 '21 at 14:47
  • 1
    @FumbleFingers They are called football fields. What's rugby? ;) – WaterMolecule Oct 04 '21 at 16:13
  • 3
    The rule that "country names shouldn't be arbitrarily tinkered with" strikes me as actually a rather odd one - we are already "tinkering" when we use an "s" to indicate the plural regardless of the name's origin so why would we not also apply the "y" -> "ies" rule? The spelling "Italys" just looks bizarre to me, and I'm surprised to see anyone consider it correct. – IMSoP Oct 04 '21 at 17:02
  • @IMSoP: Plural *Italys* looks unfamiliar because we very rarely have reason to use it. But surely when you consider *three Hail Marys* and *two Kennedys* you can see the basic rule being applied here. And it would be really strange to claim that proper noun names of countries should observe different syntactic rules to proper noun names of people. – FumbleFingers Oct 04 '21 at 17:12
  • 1
    @FumbleFingers Frankly, "Marys" and "Kennedys" look weird to me as well, and I don't see any particular reason for such a rule to exist, but you appear to be correct that it does. – IMSoP Oct 04 '21 at 17:22
  • 1 Wales = 6.61 Rhode Islands – Dan Oct 04 '21 at 18:52
  • 4
    @WaterMolecule Rugby is a sport similar to what the USA laughingly calls football, except that the players don't wear body armour and the play is way more aggressive. Take off his protective gear, and the average NFL professional would be on a stretcher within 5 minutes against a rugby team. There are some safety rules, but "poking your opponent's eye out during a tackle is illegal" would be typical one. Historically, professional rugby in the UK was mostly played by former coal miners, and they applied the same standards on the pitch as when down the mine. – alephzero Oct 04 '21 at 19:40
  • It seems that the 1940/50s references are all to do with flood defences on the Kansas river which were being built at the time. Both cities were affected. – Pete Kirkham Oct 05 '21 at 11:03
  • 2
    @PeteKirkham: I see you resisted the temptation to write Both citys* were affected!* :) – FumbleFingers Oct 05 '21 at 11:40
2

Can I add two points to what has been said above?

  1. While there is only one Sicily today, there was a Kingdom of the Two Sicilies (actually Sicily + Naples) from 1816-1860. So Sicily has a perfectly good plural. Moreover, we currently have two Koreas, as well as an ongoing dispute about whether there are one or two Chinas.
  2. IMHO the point about Hail Mary's, above, is not a consequence of Mary being a proper name, but rather the phrase "Hail Mary" being "headless": "Mary" is a woman's name, but "Hail Mary" is the name of a prayer, not of a woman. (I think that "Maries" is archaic: there is a Child ballad entitled The Four Marys or The Fower Maries "This verse suggests Mary Hamilton was one of the famous Four Maries, four girls named Mary who were chosen by the queen mother and regent Mary of Guise to be companion ladies-in-waiting to her daughter, the child monarch Mary, Queen of Scots".
Simon Crase
  • 193