2

Living in Scotland, I am accustomed to hearing "and them" used in non-controversial constructions such as "We are going to see Fiona and them for Christmas", where "them" is used to refer by concise implication to those associated with Fiona (usually family and friends).

I also know it to be used in more controversial (from the viewpoint of case grammar) constructs such as "Fiona and them are coming here for Christmas"

Diligent online search has only given me one source of discussion:

Quora

Here, one writer opines:

An easy way to figure out which is correct is to drop the “Jack and” and see which sounds right: “Them are going skiing this weekend” or “They are going skiing this weekend”. Hopefully you look at that and recognize right away it should be “They are…”. So, “Jack and they are going skiing this weekend” is correct. (And I think “They and Jack are going skiing…” sounds even better.)

This rule works in a lot of places: Should it be “Jane and me are going to the store”, or “Jane and I are going to the store”? Well, I would never say, “Me am going to the store”, but I would say “I am going to the store"

The Quora opinion seems valid from a purely grammatical perspective and it argues logically from the singular to the plural but it flies in the face of common usage in some of the population, particularly in the west of Scotland.

It is possible to justify the construct by seeing it as elliptical, creating a nominative “Fiona and them” that is composed of “Fiona and (those whom I consider to be associated with Fiona)”. Note that “whom” is appropriately accusative, justifying the construct.

My question therefore is not whether the construct is wrong or right. My question is to ask if others (particularly in Scotland) have significant experience of the idiom.

Andy Bonner
  • 5,752
Anton
  • 28,634
  • 3
  • 42
  • 81
  • Very much related: Should I put ... 'me and my friends' vs ... 'my friends and I'? /// ' ... Fiona and her family / and the others / and company / and all the rest' would be more common south of the border. This sidesteps the case problem. – Edwin Ashworth Dec 13 '21 at 13:02
  • 2
    @EdwinAshworth Trivial, and a repetition of the Quora writer, if one wants to correct or avoid the idiom. But I am asking about significant experience, not about correction or avoidance. I have modified my question to make this point even clearer. – Anton Dec 13 '21 at 14:38
  • 1
    Not really on-topic because its subjective, but for the record I haven't come across it. I'm not Scottish but have lived and worked in Glasgow longer than most people have lived there and am familiar with common grammatical misusage here like "they have went". – David Dec 13 '21 at 15:33
  • Please edit to clarify exactly which question is the focus: "Do others (esp in Scotland) experience this?" (simple, though very narrow and subjectively worded—maybe try "is this a documented idiomatic usage tied to Scotland"), OR "Are there ways of grammatically explaining this usage" (far more subjective, and tricky. Not that it's a useless activity to make "grammatical analysis of 'bad grammar'—usage is usage, and it's worthwhile to interrogate why it works—but once we go off the beaten path there may be a lot of theories. – Andy Bonner Dec 13 '21 at 15:57
  • Similar inquiries could be practiced with other idiom—American usages of "Me and him are coming for Christmas," perhaps? But not sure Stack Exchange is the venue for it. – Andy Bonner Dec 13 '21 at 15:58
  • It may be trivial, but you bring it up, and the other question predates your now excerpt from Quora. But I'm not sure why someone has downvoted here; regional usages are not off-topic (if they're not too niche). Just hard to research, as you're finding. – Edwin Ashworth Dec 13 '21 at 15:59
  • @AndyBonner You understand correctly. The question is at the end. – Anton Dec 13 '21 at 15:59
  • @Anton I'm just saying, you also ask, in the previous paragraph, about whether it's "possible to justify the construct" by parsing the pronoun into an entire assumed phrase. It's an intriguing theory, but coming before your main question, is likely to distract from it and get it closed. Also, if we're not passing judgement on "correctness" or incorrectness, then there's no need to "justify" the construct. As I said, usage is usage. Language is used, and if we're not setting out to penalize or validate it, then the remaining inquiry is to explain it. – Andy Bonner Dec 13 '21 at 16:03
  • @EdwinAshworth Some confusion here: the Quora quote was in my original; your comment seemed to relate to it; my edit as an addition was added merely as possible explanation. I would prefer to discuss the question rather than the procedural antecedents. – Anton Dec 13 '21 at 16:03
  • 1
    This expression is mentioned in another question, but oddly it's associated there with the US South: What is the origin of the use by Texans of "them" to mean one person? – Laurel Dec 13 '21 at 16:05
  • 1
    @Laurel I am really grateful for your attention to the question rather than the details of its asking. Amusingly, I now realize that I was a contributor to the discussion of the Texan question. I had forgotten all about it. – Anton Dec 13 '21 at 16:09
  • @AndyBonner I regret any confusion but as I did not include a question mark in my surmise about justification I did not regard it as a question to be answered. But see Laurel's interesting (and for me slightly embarrassing, because I had forgotten I had contributed to it!) intervention. – Anton Dec 13 '21 at 16:11
  • I was pointing out that there's a large proportion of what you label 'trivial' in your question. // In standard English, 'they' is avoided where perhaps traditionally championed in say "Is it them?" And ""Fiona and they are coming here for Christmas" sounds almost as bad as "It was they." It might just be an extragrammatical objective default. – Edwin Ashworth Dec 13 '21 at 16:13
  • I’ve heard it, especially with Mom (mom and them). I think either southern dialect or African American Vernacular. For historical reasons there is overlap. – Damila Dec 14 '21 at 03:56

1 Answers1

4

According to the “Scottish National Dictionary”:

THEM, pron. Also †thame, thaim; thim (Abd. 1913 W. Fraser Jeremiah Jobb 3), thum (Edb. 1870 J. Lauder Warblings 102, Rxb. 1927 E. C. Smith Braid Haaick 5). Sc. forms and usages. For Sh. forms see Dem, pron. [ðɛm, unstressed ðəm]

1. Used in place of the nom. they: (1) when co-ordinated with other pers. prons. Only in colloquial speech.

  • Them and huz did vera weel thegither. (s.Sc. 1873 D.S.C.S. 190)
  • Them and us is no speakin. Me and them gaed on the bus-trip last Seturday.(Sc. 1972).
user 66974
  • 67,349
  • Perfect. A serious answer to a serious question. Well, serious in my geographical context anyway. Many thanks. – Anton Dec 13 '21 at 23:14