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Many outdoor experiences involve risk but that does not mean it is inappropriate that risks be taken, the report says.

(Source: Stuff, a New Zealand news media website)

I'm curious about the use of be here. Why use the subjunctive here? Is this a regional thing (down under) or something more universal?

John Lawler
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JK2
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  • The usage is discussed fully by J Lawler at When should I use the subjunctive mood/? Most Brits would use either the indicative ('are') or the periphrastic ('should be') in such sentences; most Americans seem to prefer the ['what some people call the mandative ] subjunctive'. I find the two halves of the sentence don't fit too comfortably; I'd prefer << 'Many outdoor experiences involve risk, but we can't start from the premise that no risks should be taken,' the report says. >> – Edwin Ashworth Feb 22 '22 at 12:50
  • @EdwinAshworth The funny thing about the quote is that the subjunctive doesn't really carry any mandative force. So the theoretical question is whether you can use the subjunctive outside the mandative construction. – JK2 Feb 22 '22 at 14:43
  • I would note in passing that the construction appears in a double-negative construction (that does not mean it is inappropriate that...), and therefore one is guaranteed syntactic fireworks. – John Lawler Feb 22 '22 at 14:53
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    It's, to quote JL, impositive (laying down a law or declaring freedom of action) ('It is wrong / not wrong that risks be taken'), so the terminology is arguably still applicable. However, 'mandative subjunctive' is a term far from universally accepted. – Edwin Ashworth Feb 22 '22 at 14:55
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    Clearly this is imposing conditions on somebody; the term impositive is actually due to Georgia Green. – John Lawler Feb 22 '22 at 14:56
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    Whoever wrote that sentence should have their litotes license revoked. – SF. Feb 22 '22 at 15:04
  • @JohnLawler Do you mean that It is inappropriate that risks be taken. cannot work as a standalone sentence? – JK2 Feb 22 '22 at 15:10
  • Ho hum: Many outdoor experiences involve risk but that does not mean that taking risks is inappropriate, the report says. Why not rewrite it for the obvious meaning that is less awkward? – Lambie Feb 22 '22 at 15:12
  • @EdwinAshworth FYI, Oxford Dictionary of English Grammar shows the term "mandative subjunctive", but not "impositive". – JK2 Feb 22 '22 at 15:13
  • It's a term of art in linguistics, not the sort of thing one finds in dictionaries. It's a general term covering orders, requests, and indirect efforts to impose one's will on an addressee. Not all impositives are alike, but they all have a similar intended pragmatic effect. – John Lawler Feb 22 '22 at 15:32
  • @JK2 No, using (in)appropriate in this context at all is clearly mandative. Someone is assuming authority to decide what kind of behavior is "appropriate" in their eyes, and to tell everyone about it. Certainly trying to influence people. – John Lawler Feb 22 '22 at 15:37
  • @JohnLawler Then why did you cite a double-negative construction? – JK2 Feb 22 '22 at 15:49
  • And FYI, 'English has no subjunctive mood. ' [Bas Aarts, Author of the Oxford Modern English Grammar and the Oxford Dictionary of English Grammar; May 2015] [Grammarianism] – Edwin Ashworth Feb 22 '22 at 16:06
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    @EdwinAshworth I didn't say 'English has a subjunctive mood'. And Bas Aarts said in the post, "In view of this it makes more sense to speak of subjunctive clauses than of subjunctive verb forms." In OMEG, he does use the term "subjunctive" and "mandative subjunctive". – JK2 Feb 22 '22 at 16:25
  • Is your hesitation about the subjunctive here based on the adjective inappropriate not seeming to be a subjunctive trigger? Or is it that it appears in a subclause (that does not mean it is inappropriate that risks be taken)? Does this standalone work for you? It is inappropriate that risks be taken. – Tinfoil Hat Feb 23 '22 at 01:47
  • Isn't this more about middle voice using a passive-like construction, rather than mandative? I would use this to distance myself from being the imposer - as in hey, that's just the way things are. – Phil Sweet Feb 23 '22 at 01:50
  • @TinfoilHat "Is your hesitation about the subjunctive here based on the adjective inappropriate not seeming to be a subjunctive trigger? Or is it that it appears in a subclause (that does not mean it is inappropriate that risks be taken)?" Definitely the former. // "Does this standalone work for you? It is inappropriate that risks be taken." It doesn't work for me. – JK2 Feb 23 '22 at 01:53

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The sentence as a whole is a stylistic train wreck. However, it doesn’t seem entirely out of the question to use the subjunctive here.

If we isolate the clause and take to take out of its passive form (to be taken), it becomes more defensible:

It is inappropriate that he take risks.

(I’m using he as a stunt agent here so you can clearly see that take is in its bare, “subjunctive” form.)

Here it is back in context:

. . . that does not mean it is inappropriate that he take risks . . .

And here it is back in the passive:

. . . that does not mean it is inappropriate that risks be taken . . .

Compared with the “impositive” adjectives on John Lawler’s sample list,* (in)appropriate feels less subjunctive triggering to me. Yet, appropriate’s synonym okay is on the list:

It is not okay that he take risks.
It is not okay that risks be taken.

*acceptable, advisable, all right, appropriate, better, crucial, desirable, essential, expedient, fitting, imperative, important, legitimate, mandatory, necessary, okay, optional, permissible, preferable, right, satisfactory, sufficient, urgent, and vital. Source: When should I use the subjunctive mood? @JohnLawler

Here’s a more exhaustive list of alleged subjunctive triggers. This one includes appropriate:

subjunctive triggers

Source: The range of linguistic units: Distance effects in English mandative subjunctive constructions

So I could buy inappropriate as a subjunctive trigger. In my American English, though, I think it would be an unlikely sale. This would be more natural:

. . . that does not mean it is inappropriate to take risks. . . .

Tinfoil Hat
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  • Thanks for citing the paper. That said, just as John Lawler did in his comment, you seem to presume that an antonym of an adjective that is a subjunctive trigger can automatically be a subjunctive trigger. What's the basis for the presumption? Does it sound natural to you to use the subjunctive after "unimportant" (antonym of "important") or "optional" (antonym of "imperative")? ? It's unimportant/optional that he take risks. Now, if that doesn't sound right, can it possibly be cured just by adding "That does not mean..."? ? That does not mean it's unimportant/optional that he take risks. – JK2 Feb 23 '22 at 05:55
  • If anything, adding that does not mean makes it sound less right. And we're talking about antonymy with un- or in- — not like optional / imperative. It's unimportant that he take risks is like It's inappropriate that he take risks — a hard sell as a subjunctive trigger. But It's not important that he take risks and It's not appropriate that he take risks sit better. – Tinfoil Hat Feb 23 '22 at 19:14
  • Agreed. Then, I think the presumption cannot be justified, and that you shouldn't be able to "buy inappropriate as a subjunctive trigger". – JK2 Feb 24 '22 at 01:13
  • Involves is certainly an impositive verb. Risk is being imposed on outdoor experiences. I suspect that the awkwardness of the sentence is causing some spillover of subjunctive triggers. There are multiple senses of "appropriate", and I'm not sure all of them trigger the subjunctive. – Phil Sweet Feb 25 '22 at 13:38
  • @PhilSweet In any of the multiple senses of "appropriate", do you think there's a corresponding antonym "inappropriate" that triggers the subjunctive? If not, it is inappropriate that he take risks shouldn't work. – JK2 Feb 26 '22 at 00:38