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This is a followup to a comment exchange and particularly this comment over on ELL.

One user contends that a double negative is always wrong in standard English. This user also maintains that:

First, "un"-prefixed adjectives, etc, or verbs like "disagree", are not negatives in a grammatical sense. Secondly, a double-negative occurs when somebody uses two negative terms but actually means a negative (instead of a positive) result, such as "don't promise nothing", which is logically inconsistent with what was said, and therefore wrong.

I disagree. I maintain that such sentences as:

  • He is not unattractive.
  • He is not without charm
  • He doesn't have nothing but the clothes on his back.
  • This gem is not uncommon.
  • The price of the car is not insignificant.
  • The new disease wasn't non-infectious.
  • He wasn't irresponsible about his duties.
  • I can't get no satisfaction.
  • I don't disagree"
  • Mr. Jones wasn't incompetent.
  • We can't not go to sleep!
  • Nor did they fail to take account of it.
  • We don't need no badges!.

contain double negatives, and are mostly acceptable English. Is it correct to limit the term "double negative" to the situation "when somebody uses two negative terms but actually means a negative"? Can anyone supply an authoritative source for the usage of the term? I am already aware of the Wikipedia article but its citations are not wonderful.

tchrist
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David Siegel
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    I don't know where the statements you quoted come from. They're quite incorrect. "Double negatives" are a persistent source of confusion because there is a simplistic (and wrong) zombie rule about two negatives cancelling each other out. Except (a) people don't know what negatives are, and (b) they don't always cancel out. Negation is very complex, and simplistic solutions should be avoided. – John Lawler May 01 '22 at 18:00
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    @John Lawler The quotes are from a (linked) comment on the English Language Learners (ELL) site on stack exchange.. I fear that the comments are harmful to learners who might read and believe them, which is why I want an authoritative source to cite, so it isn't a "he said/she said" debate. The poster (user Foogod) seems to be rather prescriptivist. S/he wrote: "...people seem to have the silly notion that just because people use a construction in English that that automatically makes it correct, but that is not how grammar actually works.." – David Siegel May 01 '22 at 18:08
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    Then there was the English teacher who told her students that, while it's not correct formal English, a double negative does imply a "positive". However, there is no situation in English where a double positive can equal a negative.... To which a student in the back of the room responded "Yeah, right!" – Hot Licks May 01 '22 at 18:32
  • Sounds to me like a problem for ELL; if you want ignorant people to answer questions, by all means don't confront him/her. It's not a matter of Authority. Language doesn't give a shit about authority. Just ask him/her where the rules come from and who makes them up. – John Lawler May 01 '22 at 18:34
  • (1) 'He is not unattractive' defaults to litotes (commonly used, and semantically equivalent to 'He is [quite] attractive', but less intimate. // (2a) 'The new disease wasn't non-infectious' negates a prior statement / assumption. // (2b) 'He wasn't irresponsible about his duties' could negate a prior claim, or be almost unmarked. (3) 'We don't need no badges!' defaults to non-standard AAVE. //// Care needs to be exercised in using any of these usages. – Edwin Ashworth May 01 '22 at 18:37
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    This looks like a duplicate of Are "not uncommon" and similar phrases double negatives? Should their use be avoided?. Or are you looking for something beyond that? – Laurel May 01 '22 at 18:38
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    I'm not a fan of He doesn't have nothing and We don't need no badges. But I can't get no satisfaction is a song lyric and gets a pass for living in that category. For the Stones to correct that would be for Rhett Butler to tell Scarlett that he frankly, didn't give a darn. – Yosef Baskin May 01 '22 at 18:52
  • @John Lawler Yes it is a problem for ELL, and I am looking for ammunition for that very confrontation. As the poster seems to be a prescriptivist, I am looking for authoritative sources that say 1) litotes and other uses where two negations make a positive are forms of "double negative", 2) such uses re acceptable standard English, and 3) uses such as "There's not nothing lef" are not standard, but are common in some dialects of English. – David Siegel May 01 '22 at 18:59
  • @Laurel I was not aware of that question. Having looked at it, it does not suppl;y the souring I am particularly looking for, although it could. I was also hoping to draw attention to the ELL post. – David Siegel May 01 '22 at 19:01
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    Isn't there an ELL Meta? That's where this belongs. – John Lawler May 01 '22 at 20:06
  • @John Lawler I will take it there. That is a proper place for discussing whether the comments on ELL are proper or not. It is not a good place IMO for answering the substantive questions that I asked here, however. That is, what is the correct meaning of the term "double negative" in English? and is such a construct ever valid in Standard English? – David Siegel May 01 '22 at 20:56
  • I wish that any downvoters would leave a comment indicting what they think is wrong with this question. In the absence of a comment, I cannot improve the question, others cannot use the reasons to write better answers, and readers have no idea why someone objects to the question. Such a downvote seems pointless. – David Siegel May 01 '22 at 20:58
  • Downvotes without comments are a problem rampant across the entire SE network. We all wish people were better. – Barmar May 01 '22 at 22:03
  • @Barmar I know that, but I continue to try to draw attention to specific examples. – David Siegel May 01 '22 at 22:09
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    There is no single meaning of the term "double negative", as you have seen. Many people use it in different ways, most of whom know nothing of negation or logic. If you start off by asking what the "correct meaning" of a linguistic term is, you're going to start an argument. Read some things about negation, like my encyclopedia article and its references, and you'll see what I mean. There is an entire literature about negation and cancellation, rather than a correct meaning. – John Lawler May 02 '22 at 15:28
  • It seems that you're suggesting a sentence such as He is not unemployed is a double negative, but is the word "unemployed" a negative? Is "He is unemployed" a negative sentence, in its grammatical sense? It's perfectly acceptable in any variety of English to negate that someone is out of work: "It's not true he is unemployed" = He is not unemployed. I think your question should be limited to one or two examples and instead of labelling a user as being a prescriptist, you could ask if there is any validity to the statements. – Mari-Lou A May 04 '22 at 07:27
  • Why is "I don't disagree" a double negative? As I understand it, this is hedging: a polite way to not openly disagree with someone. It can also express hesitancy and diplomacy. – Mari-Lou A May 04 '22 at 07:38

1 Answers1

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In a comment, John Lawler wrote:

There is no single meaning of the term "double negative", as you have seen. Many people use it in different ways, most of whom know nothing of negation or logic. If you start off by asking what the "correct meaning" of a linguistic term is, you're going to start an argument. Read some things about negation, like my encyclopedia article and its references, and you'll see what I mean. There is an entire literature about negation and cancellation, rather than a correct meaning.

tchrist
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