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In his first televised Christmas message, the King said:

I am reminded of the deeply touching letters, cards and messages which so many of you have sent my wife and myself and I cannot thank you enough for the love and sympathy you have shown our whole family.

Myself, like himself, herself, itself, themselves, yourself, ourselves, etc is a reflexive pronoun, which is only used as a direct or indirect object where the corresponding indicated person is the subject of the sentence, such as:

I did the work myself...

The judge was talking to himself...

The shopkeeper bought it for herself...

The robbers divided the money among themselves...

etc.

But, when the subject refers to a different person to the object, then the reflexive form ...self, should not be used.

This may not be the first time members of the Royal family have used the reflexive pronoun in this way, and may explain why it was that Her Late Majesty the Queen was sometimes known as "Herself" - or was that just the ironical "Herself" referred to by @Kate Bunting in a comment on this page, and described by her as an "Irishism"?

So should this Royal form be given a name, akin to "the Royal we"?

WS2
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    Needs reference for the "used only" claim. – GEdgar Dec 25 '22 at 21:33
  • I probably would have avoided the compulsion for hypercorrection and said, "I am reminded of the deeply touching letters, cards and messages which so many of you have sent us. My wife and I cannot thank you enough for the love and sympathy you have shown our whole family." – Jim Dec 25 '22 at 21:40
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    It is, after all, The King's English. So he can reflexivize himself all he wants. – John Lawler Dec 25 '22 at 22:01
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    Sounds fine to me. – Hot Licks Dec 25 '22 at 23:31
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    Referring to an important person as 'Him/herself' is an Irishism (Oxford Languages says: IRISH. a third party of some importance, especially the master of the house. "I'll mention it to himself"). – Kate Bunting Dec 26 '22 at 10:01
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    @KateBunting In this case though, the king is not a third party – Azor Ahai -him- Dec 26 '22 at 21:27
  • @KateBunting I hadn't realised it was Irish in origin, but yes - I accept that is, in Britain today, a regular ironical use of the form. Indeed as I mention in the question the late Queen was often referred to as "Herself". – WS2 Dec 27 '22 at 06:45
  • I'm sure the King was not using it in the Irish sense; I was just explaining why 'Herself' may have been used of the late Queen. 'Myself' is not used in this sense. – Kate Bunting Dec 27 '22 at 09:10
  • @KateBunting Oh no! I wasn't suggesting that he had joined forces with his own satirists! – WS2 Dec 27 '22 at 09:30
  • There are arguably duplicates of this question, but the CoGEL treatment (LPH's answer) is correct and probably unduplicated on ELU. – Edwin Ashworth Dec 27 '22 at 13:13
  • '...and messages which so many of you have sent my wife and me' would sound dreadful. Here, a 'to' improves things, but often 'me' or 'you' sound dreadfully weak. 'We must thank Jill – and you – for the hard work you've put in.' / 'Please see the vice-president in charge of press releases, or me.' Orwell's Sixth trumping archaic rules of grammar which possibly have their bases in 'but that's how the original Latin had to be used', 'when the subject refers to a different person to the object, then the reflexive form ...self, should not be used' should be seen as a guideline and not Holy Writ. – Edwin Ashworth Dec 27 '22 at 15:18
  • @EdwinAshworth When using the second-person reflexive, without a corresponding subject, and the straight "you" sounds bald, then for politeness sake one can always incorporate the word "good". We must thank Jilll and your good self for the hard work you've put in. – WS2 Dec 27 '22 at 15:19
  • Good suggestion. There are situations where it wouldn't work, and 'my good self' probably needs to be on a comedy programme. FWIW, I'd commend the aide (if I'm not underestimating His Majesty) who OKed 'and myself' here. In speech, 'and myself' can sound a whole lot better than 'and me'. But I'm still going to use 'It's me/us' rather than 'It is I / myself'. – Edwin Ashworth Dec 27 '22 at 15:23
  • Quite separately, how could "the Royal we" come into this, except that both topics touch on royalty? – Robbie Goodwin Dec 27 '22 at 22:55
  • To me it seems clear 'my wife and myself…' should have been 'my wife and me' but sadly, I missed the speech. – Robbie Goodwin Dec 27 '22 at 22:55
  • @RobbieGoodwin Just Royals speaking differently to everyone else. You'll have no trouble finding the text of the speech on the BBC site or elsewhere on line. - or the YouTube video of it. – WS2 Dec 28 '22 at 00:48
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    @WS2 So they speak one way to themselves but differently when speaking to anybody else? :) – tchrist Dec 28 '22 at 02:33
  • @WS2 Apart from John Lawler's merry quip that the King can reflexivize his own English all he wants, what makes you think he or the rest of the royals speak differently to everyone else? Wouldn't that make the Question pointless? With no more to go on than the Red Queen's ruling "Words mean what I want them to mean…" it still seems clearly just a mistake. Thanks and I meant "I missed the speech…" to show I'm trusting your transcription. – Robbie Goodwin Dec 28 '22 at 15:15
  • @tchrist In a different manner to the hoi polloi. – WS2 Dec 28 '22 at 15:54
  • @RobbieGoodwin I suggest rephrasing your amusing *crash blossom* of “the royals speak differently to everyone else”. You make it sound like the royals speak to everyone else in a different manner, presumably in some manner other than they’d use speaking amongst themselves. I trust that was ɴᴏᴛ your intended reading. Maybe try “speak differently than others speak” or “speak differently from others”. Otherwise “speak to* everyone”* has too established a meaning ɴᴏᴛ to be misread! – tchrist Dec 28 '22 at 18:47
  • @tchrist I, too, saw that but that wording isn't mine; I was quoting WS2… could you ask him? – Robbie Goodwin Dec 28 '22 at 20:33

4 Answers4

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This usage is explained in CoGEL (A Comprehensive Grammar of the English Language).

(CoGEL § 6.27 Optional reflexive pronoun The basic reflexive pronoun is sometimes optional, in the sense that it may acceptably be replaced by the more usual ordinary objective pronoun. The self-forms are chosen to supply special emphasis :
(a) […]
(b) In 'semi-emphatic' use. Here the reflexive pronoun normally receives nuclear stress. It does not have the subject as its antecedent, but is commonly used as a more emphatic equivalent of the 1st and 2nd person personal pronouns. Especially, however, when it replaces I and me, myself is felt by many to be a hyperurbanism, a genteel evasion of the normal personal pronoun. The reflexive pronoun in these contexts can be reasonably called 'semi-emphatic' because it can be regarded as an abbreviated version of a sequence of the personal pronoun followed by the emphatic reflexive pronoun (you yourself, him himself, etc). Thus there are three possibilities in:

  • Anyone but {YOU/yourSELF/you yourSELF} would have noticed the change.

The latter repetition of the pronoun (you yourself) is avoided, however, outside the subject position. The constructions in which the 'semi-emphatic' reflexive occurs are the following :

(i) […]
(ii) When a reflexive pronoun (particularly a 1st person pronoun) is coordinated with another phrase:

  • They have never invited Margaret and me/myself to dinner.
  • This is a great tribute to the Scout Movement, and to you/yourself as its leader.

In this construction, the reflexive pronoun is not limited to 'object territory'; it can replace a subjective pronoun:

  • My sister and I/myself went sailing yesterday.
LPH
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    A hyperurbanism! I love that. – Xanne Dec 26 '22 at 05:37
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    @Xanne (SOED) a manner of speech arising from an effort to avoid provincialism; a hypercorrect form of speech or phrase resulting from this effort (early 20th century). – LPH Dec 26 '22 at 06:21
  • Presumably with the “urbane” meaning rather than just urban. CGEL is a bit hyperurbane itself. – Xanne Dec 26 '22 at 10:22
  • @Xanne On the contrary and surprisingly, the adjective is really "hyperurban" (exhibiting hyperurbanism). – LPH Dec 26 '22 at 12:38
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    Seems like "My sister and myself went sailing yesterday" should be wrong, given that "Myself went sailing yesterday" would definitely be wrong. – pacoverflow Dec 26 '22 at 18:16
  • Maybe here the duplicated form would sound better, i.e. "I myself went sailing yesterday"? – pdbartlett Dec 26 '22 at 22:18
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    @pacoverflow That's a rule of thumb to get the declensions right, rather than the rule. (English doesn't tend to have many the rules.) This construction is present in many varieties of English, including my own, and thus is as correct as can be. – wizzwizz4 Dec 27 '22 at 00:09
  • @pacoverflow - Yes, my sister and myself is wrong there because myself replaces I. In the King's speech it replaces me. – Kate Bunting Dec 27 '22 at 19:31
  • @KateBunting I have no opinion as to the naturalness of this usage, personnally (not enough experience), but those grammarians say that it is not limited to "object territory"; the countless cases found in the books confirm what they say; the link to the ngram does not work, but just try the research "my * and myself". – LPH Dec 27 '22 at 20:19
  • The CoGEL treatment is superb. For completeness, here is 6.27a (not relevant to OP's question): (a) In some spatial prepositional phrases << Holding her new yellow bathrobe around her(self) with both arms, she walked up to him. >> [+ 3 more examples] I'd comment (1) I haven't thought of examples offering this choice with non-spatial PPs / (2) Using 'myself' rather than 'me' sounds far more formal than using 'himself' for 'him' and may affect preference / (3) 'Padding' may affect preference (They pulled the spring lock shut behind them/selves // Their past behind them, they felt free). – Edwin Ashworth Mar 25 '24 at 12:47
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The Oxford English Dictionary has many examples of "myself" used like this. I searched only for "and myself". Examples:

1904 W. B. Yeats Let. 16 Apr. (1994) III. 582
Miss Horniman, the architect & myself were inspecting the theatre

1960 Daily Tel. 27 Jan. 11/4
He subjected a colleague and myself to analyses

1987 Grimsby Evening Tel. 10 Dec. 24/6
The manager and myself are working flat out

U13-Forward
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GEdgar
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    At least he did not refer to himself as "my Majesty" ... there was a thread here about that recently. https://english.stackexchange.com/a/597897/9368 – GEdgar Dec 25 '22 at 21:46
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    Those examples that the OED gives are surely just further examples of incorrect English grammar, which would be marked down if used in a school or public examination. – WS2 Dec 25 '22 at 23:54
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    @WS2, you may be right about school tests, but the untriggered reflexive seems to be gaining ground in popular usage, even through to moderately formal contexts such as the King's address to the nation. – Toby Speight Dec 26 '22 at 12:52
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    @WS2: Since this usage is common in Shakespeare, and has never completely vanished since, calling it incorrect might be a little excessive. From Hamlet — When yond same star that's westward from the pole // Had made his course t' illume that part of heaven // Where now it burns, Marcellus and myself, // The bell then beating one- – Peter Shor Dec 26 '22 at 15:45
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    Sure OED has umpty examples, but of what, exactly? Are those merely citations of recorded usage, or examples of correct usage… or should we not mind? – Robbie Goodwin Dec 27 '22 at 22:16
  • @PeterShor Shakespeare often takes poetic licence with the English language, such as his famed double comparative in Othello - Act 1, Scene 3. To vouch this is no proof// Without more wider* and more overt test// Than these thin habits and poor likelihoods// Of modern seeming do prefer against him.*

    But talking about your "more better ideas" in an interview for an English teacher, would not help you get the job - I suggest.

     – WS2 Dec 28 '22 at 09:09
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    @WS2: I would classify the non-reflexive use of myself with split infinitives, prepositions at the ends of sentences, the singular they, the use of have got by Americans — i.e., as things that are perfectly fine in spoken English and have been used for centuries, but which English teachers mark off for. Double comparatives, on the other hand, were fine in Shakespeare's time, but are pretty much not used anymore. – Peter Shor Dec 28 '22 at 11:33
  • @PeterShor Were the double comparatives "fine in Shakespeare's time". I was genuinely unaware of that. If it were the case one would perhaps expect a lot to them in the AV Bible, which English is of the same vintage. Are you aware of any? – WS2 Dec 28 '22 at 12:53
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    @WS2: I can't find any in the Bible, but in the works of Seneca, translated in 1614 by Thomas Lodge, we have "But that is the more truer and firmer caufe is that theayre hath a naturall force of mouing her felfe". I don't think a translator of Seneca would take the same kind of poetic license that Shakespeare did. – Peter Shor Dec 28 '22 at 13:26
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There are examples of this usage, as mentioned in Strategies for Parents.com:

     Is It Correct to Say “and Myself”?
You should only use “and myself” when your subject is “I” and you include yourself as one of multiple objects. You can only use “myself” when speaking from the first-person point of view, and using “myself” when the subject is not “I” results in an error grammarians call the “untriggered reflexive.”

Here is an example of a grammatically correct sentence that contains “and myself”:

I bought two tickets to the basketball game for William and myself.

The usage of "and myself" here is the same as in the sentence you reference to:

I am reminded of the deeply touching letters, cards and messages which so many of you have sent my wife and myself and I cannot thank you enough for the love and sympathy you have shown our whole family.

Thus, using "myself" this way is correct grammar.

Mari-Lou A
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U13-Forward
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    Please attribute your sources. It helps the OP and users alike to see at a glance the source of your citations. – Mari-Lou A Dec 26 '22 at 07:12
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    The subject in the subordinate, which is the one that matters in reference to this grammatical rule, is not "I" but "you". Your answer is fundamentally flawed. – LPH Dec 26 '22 at 07:15
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    Your conclusion contradicts your source - in that clause, the subject is "so many of you", which is clearly not "I". That's an untriggered reflexive by the logic above. (As to whether that's an error in English, it's debatable - it seems to be increasingly tolerated, and English grammar is descriptive rather than prescriptive...) – Toby Speight Dec 26 '22 at 12:49
  • @LPH can you cite a source for saying that it's the subject of the subordinate clause that matters here? On my understanding, "myself" here is not an untriggered reflexive because there is a clear "I" in the sentence that it refers to. – Michael Kay Dec 28 '22 at 20:28
  • @MichaelKay A source is not needed; the OP is enough. It says "Myself, […] etc is a reflexive pronoun, which is only used as a direct or indirect object where the corresponding indicated person is the subject of the sentence, such as […]". The discussions, as in this text, take the sentence as a basis for discussion and it is the simplest sentence, but that is a simplification (it is true that this precision should be given every time though). Notice, however that you can turn these sentences into clauses by preceding them with the text "The observer didn't know that", (1/2) – LPH Dec 29 '22 at 03:10
  • @MichaelKay which contains a main clause. It becomes clear that the indicated person is not "the observer", is not in the main clause but in the subordinate. By the way, my saying that the subject is "you" in my comment above is a rather coarse approximation; as user Toby Speight says, it is "so many of you". (2/2) – LPH Dec 29 '22 at 10:06
  • << So many of you have sent my wife and myself deeply touching letters, cards and messages. >> is directly comparable to the sentence in question. I have no trouble with this 'semi-emphatic' [CoGEL] usage, used because using 'me' might well be considered to sound weak ... but the 'rule' suggested by S for P disallows this. The King's English overrules this lesser authority (at least on this occasion). – Edwin Ashworth Mar 25 '24 at 12:24
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In response to the many thoughtful observations about the king's use of "sent my wife and myself," I would have written, "sent to my wife and me." No one sent Charles (himself) or his wife anywhere; they sent letters, cards and messages to them.

My thinking on this is similar to, for instance, the example "Throw me the ball." No one is throwing "me"; one is throwing the ball. Therefore, I would write, "Throw the ball to me."

Gerry
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    Is there a reason you're avoiding this particularly common phrasing? Do you also avoid expressions like "pay me" and "teach me"? – Laurel Dec 27 '22 at 19:09
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    You've got your work cut out for you if you want to change the worldwide English usage of indirect objects. – Lee Mosher Dec 27 '22 at 23:31