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People keep saying use modes to get a different sound. How can you get a different sound from modes when they use the same chords from whichever you built the modes off, doesn't really matter if it's major or minor, that part is confusing?

Tim
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christopher ramsden
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  • Can you edit and clarify what kind of difference you're looking for? Is this about making a piece in the Lydian mode not sound like it's major, for example? – Todd Wilcox Nov 13 '23 at 21:41
  • it's about the chords of the modes how can you add a different sound to your music using modes when the chords of the modes are the same as the major parent scale why use modes at all. – christopher ramsden Nov 14 '23 at 00:36
  • I'm still not clear on what you mean by "different sound" and your comment doesn't expand on that at all. But it does seem like you're asking how to write in a particular mode without what you've written sounding like it's in a different mode. – Todd Wilcox Nov 14 '23 at 02:56
  • In what context do people tell you to "use modes to get a different sound"? Is the difference you seek similar to the difference between major and minor keys? – phoog Nov 14 '23 at 09:54
  • I think what’s making this an unclear question is that it’s about unclear advice. “Sound” is about as vague as you can get in music. But here’s a question: do you perceive a difference between major and minor? A different “feel”? If so, that’s your starting point. – Andy Bonner Nov 14 '23 at 13:13
  • you misunderstand me you build modes off parent scales i understand that, what i don't understand is how do you make different sounds using modes when the modes use the exact same chords as the parent scale but in a different order, i know when you play the modal scale, that has it's own sound but the chords come from the parent scale. – christopher ramsden Nov 14 '23 at 15:26
  • The problem word here is "sound." Whoever gave you this advice failed to clarify it. Chords are sounds you make, yes. And many modes share the same "chord-sounds." But I think whoever gave this advice meant something more along the line of "feel": an overall gestalt based on context. Also: changing the mode isn't the only way to get a different "feel," maybe not even the most impactful way. I wouldn't worry too much about the advice. – Andy Bonner Nov 14 '23 at 16:52
  • i know each mode scale has it's own unique sound quality C D E F G A B C ionian mode D E F G A B C D dorian mode i you where to sound the scale out starting on E and ending on E that would sound different to the other modes, but the chords you make from the modal scales come from the parent scale but there just in a different order my question is how do you get a different sound using modes when the chords from the modal scales come directly from the parent scale? – christopher ramsden Nov 14 '23 at 20:27
  • Does https://music.stackexchange.com/q/5382/78419 help? It does seem to me that you're thinking only of scales, without really understanding what a mode is. – Andy Bonner Nov 14 '23 at 21:55
  • i know what a mode is it's like a scale but you start on a different degree. – christopher ramsden Nov 15 '23 at 00:45
  • NO. A mode, for the purposes of this conversation, is not a scale. Major and minor share the same notes; the difference is the "tonality," aka "key," you're in. I.e. which note is "do" and which is "sol," the gravitational pull of tonal harmony toward a certain "home base." This is how multiple modes can share the same scale degrees and still be in any sense different entities. Please read the many pages that have been linked at this point. – Andy Bonner Nov 15 '23 at 13:22
  • Also, feel free to edit this question into something that is not a duplicate, and it can be reopened. – Andy Bonner Nov 15 '23 at 13:23

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You don't "use" modes by selecting a scale and randomly playing notes and chords from it without having any sense, skill and control over what you are doing with your notes and chords. A modal scale does not guarantee that any random note chaos will create a modal feeling as long as the notes and chords are selected from the right scale. You need to know what picture you are drawing. Where is the center and what's in it.

A scale doesn't create a mode, it's the musician who creates a mode, often using a scale as a tool. A musician can use a scale and FAIL to create the intended mode in the listener's ear. It can happen if the musician emphasizes the wrong notes or doesn't emphasize the right notes for that mode. The same set of notes, say, the white keys of the piano, can be used to create many different harmonic feelings, and the seven diatonic modes are examples of such harmonic feelings. But there are others, for example, if you cannot feel a harmonic center pitch, then it's not any mode at all.

First you need to have the skill of creating the harmonic feeling of a mode. Only after you can do that, then you can think about when and why you might want to use that mode's feeling. You must be able to bake a cake, and then you can use a cake. If you do not have the skill, you can buy a ready-made cake and use it.

Similarly, you can select a ready-made musical piece that produces the mode you want, and then you can talk about using the feeling somewhere for some purpose. I suppose there are audio and MIDI libraries which have ready-made musical material for various modes. Producers can use those, if they cannot build their own material from lower level ingredients.

piiperi Reinstate Monica
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How can you get a different sound from modes when they use the same chords from whichever you built the modes off, doesn't really matter if it's major or minor, that part is confusing?

Major and minor keys both use major and minor chords, yet they sound different. The difference lies in the relationship of each chord to the "home" pitch, and, perhaps more significantly, in the relationship of each degree of the scale to the home pitch. Most notably, "modal" music is usually identified (in modern music) by having a raised fourth degree or, most especially, a lowered seventh degree.

(In fact, an increasing fashion for chromatic alteration -- raising the leading tone and lowering the fourth and sixth degrees of Mixolydian and Dorian modes, respectively -- was the primary cause of the modern major and minor scales' developing from modes between the late medieval and early baroque periods of music history. So nowadays chromatic alteration is generally incompatible with the "modal" label, since it typically means that the music is in fact tonal.)

But in popular music, the boundary between modal and tonal music is less clear, in part because of the blue note. You can use a C7 chord as a functional tonic in a song in C major without having to say that the song is in in the Mixolydian mode. The difference between the Dorian mode and the natural minor, a.k.a. the Aeolian mode, is subtle to nonexistent, owing to the flexibility of the sixth and seventh degrees of the minor scale.

In practical reality, where music uses chromatic alteration, the primary feature that makes a song modal is likely to be the melody, with chords that don't necessarily come from that mode's diatonic scale. For example, "Light My Fire" by the Doors contains (looking only at the first verse without the introduction) the chords of A minor, F♯ minor, G, A, D, B, and E. The pitch class set implied by these chords is A, B, C, C♯, D, D♯, E, F♯, G, and G♯. None of the diatonic modes contains all of these pitches. None could, since there are 10 of them. But the melody uses only the pitches A, B, C, D, E, F♯, and G, quite solidly A Dorian.

phoog
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  • Interestingly(?), quartal harmony feels different with regards to creating a "home pitch" sensation, even while using the same diatonic notes. – piiperi Reinstate Monica Nov 14 '23 at 12:26
  • @piiperiReinstateMonica thanks for calling attention to the triadic bias in this answer. On reflection, though, I think the question is probably implicitly about triadic harmony so I won't edit :-) But your comment makes me realize that I don't know much in the way of actual quartal music. I'll have to explore a bit. – phoog Nov 14 '23 at 12:59
  • Yes, I saw that your answer tries to take into account characteristics of different harmonic styles - in a way that probably goes over the OP's head by a mile, but it's still good stuff - so why not expand the horizon a bit more. And then there's atonality, which deliberately tries to avoid establishing a tonal center. Is atonality possible with a diatonic scale? I think it has to be, at least with random note mash. – piiperi Reinstate Monica Nov 14 '23 at 16:54