Suppose there are two debaters A and B, and a proposition X. A thinks X is reasonable, and believes X. B does not think X is reasonable, and therefore lacks a belief in X. Thus, A and B are in disagreement about the reasonableness of X. Can disputes of this kind be resolved objectively in all cases? If so, what is the objective standard that must be followed to resolve the dispute? Where did that standard come from, and why is this specific standard the one that everyone should follow?
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4No. (just my opinion, feel free to disagree) – Scott Rowe Nov 13 '23 at 20:22
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what about reasonable and unreasonable behaviours? i guess we have the courts for that huh? – Nov 13 '23 at 20:28
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5A basic strategy to dissolve the stalemate: Define your concepts, clarify your arguments, arrange with each other about a common test case for your positions. – Jo Wehler Nov 13 '23 at 21:27
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3Some can (scientists do that by staging experiments and reasoning from established facts), and some can't (especially about morality, religion or art). Standards vary depending on the nature of beliefs and their subject matter. – Conifold Nov 13 '23 at 23:47
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@Conifold well that's like your opinion man – Nov 13 '23 at 23:50
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@prof_ghost Conifold's comment is what I was getting at in my post. I deleted it because I think J.D.s answer is more complete. – Annika Nov 13 '23 at 23:51
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great @Annika are you conifold? imo the standards for reasonableness are lower for extra scientific claims, but nonetheless some such claims are more/less reasonable than others. i won't "answer" – Nov 13 '23 at 23:52
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@prof_ghost agreed on some standards being more reasonable than others, the issue is there is no uniquely "most reasonable" approach, so we are left with foundational ambiguity. Normally this is resolved using more pragmatic criteria otherwise we'd never get moving on anything. – Annika Nov 14 '23 at 00:11
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idk what you think you are showing @Annika but forget it. i mean why would we need to agree on everything for objectivity? i guess the ambiguity is built into the site – Nov 14 '23 at 00:14
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@prof_ghost not sure what I'm doing that is annoying you - we are not compelled to by objective truth to use any standard. We have to choose one amongst many. that's it. Not trying to be argumentative. – Annika Nov 14 '23 at 00:16
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it's annoying that you are being argumentative but not arguing for anything @Annika – Nov 14 '23 at 00:20
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@prof_ghost "Can disputes of this kind be resolved objectively in all cases?" No, because it comes down to choice of what we call objective. and not everyone will agree on that. I said that in my answer, JD in theirs, and in the above comments. That is a valid thing to argue for. – Annika Nov 14 '23 at 00:23
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yes, we don't know everything @Annika – Nov 14 '23 at 00:24
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sorry for being a PITA @Annika i hope not too badly – Nov 14 '23 at 02:31
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you might like this chapter "Conceptions of objectivity are different for scientific work, for everyday concerns, and for social, moral and aesthetic questions and so there is not one simple definition of objectivity that can be applied to all." – Nov 14 '23 at 03:56
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Would love to hear a bonafide flat earther's opinion on the matter. – Lamar Latrell Nov 14 '23 at 05:47
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@LamarLatrell As a bonafide flatearther lemme give you the good news that slowly but surely our numbers are spreading across the globe – Rushi Nov 14 '23 at 06:43
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1OP: If what you ask were even remotely feasible one could dispense with courts lawyers armies and have logicians solve all problems. Here's just a random list of currently contentious topics. – Rushi Nov 14 '23 at 06:46
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1@prof_ghost all good - I removed my answer because I also felt I didn't have enough to say apart from the above comment, so that observation was warranted for sure. – Annika Nov 14 '23 at 13:56
5 Answers
It depends on what you mean by 'objectively'. If objectivity is taken to be the consensus of subjective agents, for instance, by subscribing to a convention, then there is, let's call it, a first-order capacity to resolve reasonableness by examining the principles of reason. For instance, in the analysis of argumentation, if the parties subscribe to classical logic, have similar views on terminology, have a system for structuring and evaluating proofs, then yes, there is some degree of objectivity. Typically, for instance, in a debating society, there is some shared notion of fallacy, rhetoric, and logic that participants submit to and that judges can invoke in evaluation.
But what happens when the parties in the debate object to their logics? What if one participant accepts non-classical logic as a way of arguing and another does not? What if there is a basic difference in the analysis of informal reasoning in regards to warrant, rebuttal, inference, and so on? Then the debate spills over from "objective claims" into the nature of objectivity and inference itself. This is a common occurrence in philosophy, and this is generally taken as a metaphysical dispute, that is, a dispute of first principles, in the language of Descartes.
Then, since metaphysical theories come into play, for instance, what constitutes an adequate theory of truth, what does it mean to have incommensurable language, what should be admitted to exist and what rejected (in other words meta-ethical, meta-ontological, and meta-epistemological disputes), one often finds oneself in yet another layer of disputes about fact and value that may make the original argument entirely unacceptable. In such a case, unless there are "objective rules" for meta-philosophical discussion accepted, it's hard to see how objectivity can resolve the matter.
In practice, generally such arguments often become polemical as a lack of common ground tends to frustrate both parties. Of course, quietism is another way to respond to these circumstances.
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It seems like there should be a lowest common denominator 'Esperanto' version of Philosophy that everyone agrees on, and then they can go off in to the weeds with their pet ideas from there if they like. I guess this sounds dismissive, judgemental and clueless. I must be missing something. – Scott Rowe Nov 13 '23 at 23:17
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I'm going to watch "Arrival" again and see if I have new insights :-) – Scott Rowe Nov 14 '23 at 00:36
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All I'll add is that you don't necessarily just keep going deeper. If done right, one would narrow a disagreement down to e.g. some irreconcilable value judgement about what's most important when it comes to what one believes, or judgements about specific pieces of evidence. As an aside, disagreements aren't also typically resolved in a day (whether by changing a mind or finding the root of disagreement), and it's often a good idea to take a break to give both parties some time to reflect on what's been said. – NotThatGuy Nov 16 '23 at 08:03
It may be that the only way a claim can be objectively more or less reasonable is via empirical test, and every other belief is unjustified or subjective, varying from person to person in the same way preference for ice cream is. Or perhaps not. If you want to look for epistemic virtues for non scientific beliefs, then these include attentiveness, creativity, curiousity etc..
appropriate activation of epistemic virtues contributes a further element to the objectivity of the decision-making process. Their involvement in the process serves to ensure that the theoretical virtues are rigorously and cor- rectly applied.
I don't know of any equivalent standards for belief (in general, as opposed to e.g. explanatory power in science) itself, though consensus and consistency may be a good start.
If you're looking for guarantees of objectivity, these may not exist, perhaps even for scientific research (errors in data collection etc.). Anyway, in general there's no one answer
"Conceptions of objectivity are different for scientific work, for everyday concerns, and for social, moral and aesthetic questions and so there is not one simple definition of objectivity that can be applied to all.
I would suggest reading this
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1Concensus is not an objective standard, nor are attentiveness, creativity, curiousity. – armand Nov 14 '23 at 00:17
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what do you mean by "objective". is an experiment "objective" @armand. obviously consensus is not metaphysically independent of ppl. it may ensure objectivity – Nov 14 '23 at 00:20
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1Objective is what does not depend on the observer (and actually, what OP is asking about). Every experiment includes a part of interpretation and bias, but an experiment's result is objective. If 2 scientists agree on the protocol then they have to accept the result. Concensus as a criterion is important but faces the "heap problem": how many grains of sand to we need to gather to make a heap, how many specialists can disagree with the majority until we can't say there is a concensus (and who gets to decide who the "specialists" are?) – armand Nov 14 '23 at 00:26
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and consensus can lead to a form of "objectivity" so, like always, i don't see your problem @armand – Nov 14 '23 at 00:27
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no. why do you feel put quotes around objectivity. It feels like you yourself don't believe in what you are saying. 'a form of "objectivy"' and 'objectivity' are not the same. Let's not be sloppy around terms. – armand Nov 14 '23 at 05:55
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thanks for that analysis, but accusing people of self deceit is a bad look @armand same as repeating yourself "no". it was to highlight the word, like a title. let's not bother winding each other up. – Nov 14 '23 at 06:06
The sort of debate that you depict would descend into chaos unless there were an arbiter accepted by both sides. Any reasonable arbiter would employ all of the principles and tools of reason advanced over the ages. This would not be objective, in the sense that human agency is needed. Perhaps there might be an artificial intelligence arbiter one day? I am not aware of the development of any standard of what is reasonable. Imagine a debate about abortion. A states that human life begins at conception. Therefore, is unjustifiable in all cases. B states that bodily autonomy is paramount. Therefore, the state has no right to abridge the right to abortion. A might be asked for evidence to prove their contention. B might be asked to prove that bodily autonomy is paramount. A is being asked a question of fact. B is being asked a philosophical question. A relies on reason from faith. B relies on liberal thought impinging on politics. A can provide no scientific evidence. B cannot provide evidence that all philosophical thought concurs that bodily autonomy is paramount. A is behaving reasonably in the context of their faith. B is behaving reasonably within the context of liberal philosophy and politics. If the proposition is that the state has the right to abridge access to abortion in all cases, B can rely on the common law principle that human life begins at birth. B can also rely on documents like the UN Declaration of Human Rights, articles 3, 7, and 12. So, although philosophically the debate between A and B cannot be reasonably arbitrated, it can be in the context of law in the West. Unfortunately, in other jurisdictions it could be arbitrated in the other direction. Even in the West, however, it could be arbitrated in the other direction because of authoritarian ideology among the judiciary. So it is possible that a particular debate cannot be satisfactorily arbitrated philosophically or legally. The imagined AI arbiter would rely on human input, so would be no more successful than a human arbiter.
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Reasonability is a characteristic of Mind.Mind is a phenomena. It arises , changes and vanishes. Mind can suffer from psychological diseases. People can go mad for various reasons like vanity , jealousy , love , hate , biases etc. In such a circumstances, reasonability can not be expected always. Therefore objectivity can not be expected always if the involved parties are not reasonable .
Therefore in case of disputes , if the involved parties have healthy mind and share a common ground of justice then objectivity can be reached in the dispute settlements. Objectivity itself is an impermanent phenomena as the mind is an impermanent phenomena.
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The clear answer is no. Any disagreement between two people relies upon assumptions that cannot be proven. Perhaps one can use the number of these assumptions as a standard for deciding between two theories…but this very standard would be another assumption :)