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Why was Nietzsche misunderstood? Philosophy isn't necessarily easy to understand, but with e.g. the nazis, was it a malicious misreading of him that set germany on the road to extreme fascism? Is it sufficient to not join any political parties to avoid misappropriating him, and if not then what is going on here?

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    The poetic, bordering on cryptic way he wrote is probably a key factor. – armand Jan 10 '24 at 00:45
  • It is not so much "misunderstanding", but "used". Nietzsche was read and well-known since the 1880's: "By World War I, Nietzsche had acquired a reputation as an inspiration for right-wing German militarism and leftist politics [please, note:"leftist"]. From 1888 through the 1890s there were more publications of Nietzsche works in Russia than in any other country. Nietzsche was influential among the Bolsheviks. " 1/2 – Mauro ALLEGRANZA Jan 11 '24 at 09:32
  • "Nietzsche's growing prominence suffered a severe setback when his works became closely associated with Hitler and Nazi Germany. It is debated among scholars whether Hitler read Nietzsche, although if he did, it may not have been extensively. He was a frequent visitor to the Nietzsche museum in Weimar and used expressions of Nietzsche's, such as "lords of the earth" in Mein Kampf. The Nazis made selective use of Nietzsche's philosophy." 2/2 – Mauro ALLEGRANZA Jan 11 '24 at 09:35
  • Part of misunderstanding is due to The Will to Power (manuscript): "a book of notes drawn from the literary remains (or Nachlass) of the philosopher Friedrich Nietzsche by his sister Elisabeth Förster-Nietzsche and Peter Gast. [...] While researching materials for the Italian translation of Nietzsche's complete works in the 1960s, the philologists Giorgio Colli and Mazzino Montinari [studied the manuscripts]. They have called The Will to Power a "historic forgery" artificially assembled by Nietzsche's sister and Gast." – Mauro ALLEGRANZA Jan 11 '24 at 09:38
  • And see Elisabeth Förster-Nietzsche: "she was the sister of philosopher Friedrich Nietzsche and the creator of the Nietzsche Archive in 1894. In 1885 when Elisabeth married Bernhard Förster, a former high school teacher who had become a prominent German nationalist and antisemite. Bernhard Förster planned to create a "pure Aryan settlement" in the New World, and had found a site in Paraguay. Faced with mounting debts, Förster committed suicide on 3 June 1889. Later Elisabeth left the colony and returned to Germany." – Mauro ALLEGRANZA Jan 11 '24 at 09:42
  • @MauroALLEGRANZA hitler didn't read nietzsche but understood him anyway?? –  Jan 11 '24 at 17:48
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    I think we can't really listen (read understand) anybody, we hear what we want and then draw out selfish conclusions from it. Nitzche or any other philosopher can't be understood truly, we can have information about their philosophy or can use them to support our ego as Hitler did. – Junsui Jan 13 '24 at 10:12
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    Misunderstood by whom? Your question is far too broad. Please specify the particular misunderstanding you had in mind. If you are referring only to the appropriation of Nietzche by the Nazis, how do you know it was a misunderstanding rather than a deliberate distortion? – Marco Ocram Feb 09 '24 at 10:43
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    In a strong sense Nietzsche was before his time, not just at his time but even today 1½ century later. See. Thus is what makes him tantalizingly attractive but also inscrutable – Rushi Feb 09 '24 at 11:32

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Nietzsche was to Nazism what Darwin was to eugenics, Marx to Stalinsim and so on - justification via selective reading. Nietzsche's sister played an important role in his association with Nazism, but ultimately his contribution was quite limited. Nazism, like most political movements, cherry picked from any and every philosophy, religion and movement that might be seen to prove the ideological point. So whilst a superficial understanding of the ubermensch might appeal to fascist ideology, the rejection of assumed authority it results in does not fit so easily, but if you read the ubermensch through the lens of aryan supremacy and throw in some norse mythology a bit of social Darwinsim and some selective Marxist materialism and whole load of fascism and let it cook in the disaffected minds of 1920s Germany (and Europe in general if we are going to be honest) - hey presto you end up with Nazism.

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Fetish

an inanimate object worshipped for its supposed magical powers or because it is considered to be inhabited by a spirit.

And surely we can fetishise ideals, especially when they reproduce capital

The mistaken view that the value of a commodity is intrinsic and the corresponding failure to appreciate the investment of labour that went into its production.

https://www.oxfordreference.com/display/10.1093/oi/authority.20110810104638104

Surely the ubermensch itself, even if achievable and especially if it's all that matters, is not especially interesting. Construct a just so story that whenever we stub our foot, the anger associated with it signals that the external world is unreal, and posit that this means that the near unachievable ideal is to have very strong toes.

Make is appealing with some nice shoes.

  • kinda fun to say, though i should add that ofc idk barely anything about the topic of how important nietzsche was, let alone why etc –  Jan 10 '24 at 04:22
  • Something caught your attention about it, so see what it was. – Scott Rowe Feb 09 '24 at 14:46
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This isn't precisely a matter of 'misunderstanding'. Philosophy is a tool (a tool for examining and improving one's life), but like any tool it's dangerous in the hands of novices, and open to misuse by malicious actors. What happened in Germany was essentially what happens inside any malignant spiritual or religious cult: someone takes high-minded, idealistic words and uses them to promote low-minded, degraded behavior. The Nazis specifically reached out to a group of frustrated, disempowered, disheartened people and used the Nietzschean ideal to inspire those people to break free of social 'morality' structures that (ostensibly) constrained and oppressed them. But the Nazis never encouraged people to do the philosophical work of defining or discovering higher-order morality (never taught them how to use Nietzsche's tool properly). They merely used the ideal to break the moral order, so that Nazi ideology could fill the void.

Nietzsche's philosophy was a rejection of nihilism. The Nazis used it to generate nihilism, so that no moral argument could counter their goals or actions. It's no different than Cristians or Muslims (both self-defined religions of peace) calling for the blood of the other side. A real Nietschean could have overcome the Nazi misapplication, but real philosophers are few and far between. Most everyone else cannot easily see when a principle in words is being used against itself in action.

One should never philosophize incautiously…

Ted Wrigley
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  • why not a misunderstanding? i'm with you with i guess the rest of it –  Jan 10 '24 at 04:30
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    @halp: Because the failure isn't in understanding, exactly. The failure is in application or consequential understanding. To use my other example, if someone says 'God is love', they surely understand the words well enough. But the problem comes from applying them in a world filled with hatred, violence, and difference. Philosophy is the art/science of understanding how to understand and apply the words in the world. – Ted Wrigley Jan 10 '24 at 04:56
  • i think the difference between understanding and wrong application is forced. –  Jan 10 '24 at 05:29
  • @halp: Interesting… it strikes me as essential. Perhaps badly phrased, though… – Ted Wrigley Jan 10 '24 at 05:47
  • i agree there's a difference between reading words and understanding them, but i'm not sure, if you believe that philosophy is about life, that you can understand it and not apply it and by extension apply it with understanding and not misapplication. what is an application of philosophy to life besides doing so with understanding? i think the idea of philosophy as a tool is over hyped/stated –  Jan 10 '24 at 05:52
  • suppose the nazis understood nietzsche's work but applied him to german life in a way that was too destructive, that it was added to in a way that misused it. is it still nietzsche's philosophy that we are talking about? conjunctive statements (god is dead and jews are evil) can be false in a few ways, which suggests that they misunderstood how they used nietzsche –  Jan 10 '24 at 06:08
  • suppose i read a philosopher and perfectly represent their views to someone, then add that the earth is flat. i agree it doesn't necessarily mean i've not understood the former, but if i derive the latter from it then presumably i have in some sense, at least given that it's not reasonable to do so –  Jan 10 '24 at 06:21
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    @halp: If you want to get down to the nitty-gritty, I'm going to tell you that an overt philosophy is an effort to express a particular 'attitude' — a way of holding/presenting oneself with respect to the world — in language. Ultimately it's the organic 'attitude' one want's to grasp; the words are just a vehicle. But one has to develop into the attitude, which means learning to drive the vehicle. And even good drivers sometimes take wrong turns. – Ted Wrigley Jan 10 '24 at 06:35
  • this seems like a diversion from what i was asking about, which was whether or not the nazis misunderstood nietzsche. idt you can reliably infer vacuously false proposoitions from true ones. given, nazism was ideologically false, so if it was derived from nietzsche they either misunderstood him or how they applied him –  Jan 10 '24 at 06:42
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    @halp: The Nazis were interested in Nietzsche's work (in part, at least) because they were looking for a philosophical justification of the 'Master Race' concept, and a lot of N's writing could be read that way superficially. It was teleological reasoning: they knew the goal they wanted to reach, and N could be read towards that goal, and he was German, and modern, so they went with it. I don't think they ever really tried to grasp the 'attitude' behind the writing, because that certainly wouldn't have served their purpose. – Ted Wrigley Jan 10 '24 at 06:43
  • so no attempt to understand. that makes sense! –  Jan 10 '24 at 06:44
  • @halp: If you're going to ask me whether that's still derived from N's work, well… It's derived from his words, not from the attitude behind his words. Some part of that attitude will necessarily be carried over by the words (that's what words do), but it will learn the organic self-consistency and inner cohesion of N's attitude. If you take a nice wooden ship and start pulling out certain boards and slapping on new boards in different ways, it will still be a nice ship for a while, until at some point it keels over or falls apart. – Ted Wrigley Jan 10 '24 at 06:47
  • @halp: Yes, well, I think a question like "did the nazis misunderstood nietzsche?" is too simplistic to answer directly. Understanding as a concept is still awfully occult. – Ted Wrigley Jan 10 '24 at 06:49
  • i'm not sure "simplistic" is the right word. –  Jan 10 '24 at 07:22
  • like, i have no idea why yuou have siezed on that as a thing to refute. –  Jan 10 '24 at 07:29
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Was he misunderstood in the first place?

Disclaimer: My knowledge about Nietzsche is quite limited and I've only read fragments of his work or secondary thoughts about him. So take it with a grain of salt and correct where necessary.

The way I understand it Nietzsche essentially argued that the enlightenment killed god. That is the previous moral code of a universal morality, handed down by a god and propagated by the church has been exposed as a fraud and thus god is dead and we killed him.

Nietzsche apparently extensively rants about this fraud essentially thinking he uncovered that this fraud is an example of a "slave morality", i.e. a morality of slaves that define their masters as evil and as good what is not the master's. And conjectures that this is basically bound to perpetuate and intensify the enslavement because a) they literally define themselves by their antagonists, thus can't be without it and b) in the consequence of rejecting what is the master's they also end up rejecting their own freedom and agency of themselves as evil. And thus end up with enslavement as a virtue.

And apparently is really not a fan of that, but instead tries to push the idea of a new morality of the "free individual" who is the "master of their own fate", one might say a "master morality". Now a truly free person can't be bound to the categories of "good" and "evil", because if they were then whomever is "evil" would truly be their master as they'd be the source of their morality. So in consequence you need to become that master. Which you might be able to read as a positive affirmation of life, as becoming your own source of morality as defining new categories of "good" and "bad" with respect to what suits you and your goals and what doesn't. While on the other hand you might also come away from that with the idea that being the master,i.e. being evil is actually good.

I guess Nietzsche would not be a fan of the latter interpretation as that is still kind of a slave morality where you just swapped the labels of "good" and "evil" but still define yourself by an other and still kinda reject your own agency. Something like a "what would Jesus NOT do". Though given that he was careful not to place any restrictions on your own morality, while arguing against classic ideas of what is and isn't moral, you might also come away from that with the idea that agency really is about subjugating others and being an asshole.

Or the other way around, Nietzsche would not have a problem with you doing that, as long as you did so in pursuit of your own moral.

Now whether that creates a problem with Nazi ideology depends on how much you believe, that they believed their own propaganda.

Like ultimately the ideology that they propagated would, irrespective of being objectively bullshit and genocidal, also be in contradiction with what I got from Nietzsche. Like the idea of a "master race" just makes no sense in this framework. First of all, afaik, Nietzsche was not a darwinist, the ascension of the übermensch comes from taking control of one's own morality, NOT by eugenics and evolution. And crucially the master is a free individual, not a group... A whole race of those would either have no master (which Nietzsche would probably again reject as slave morality where the individual is suppressing their own uniqueness, agency and freedom in favor of other people) or there would be competition for the position of the master, which you can read as darwinism but which in his framework would neither favor the strongest nor fittest, but the one being the most themselves, even if that meant hardship and trouble, actually especially if it meant that.

Though that assumes that the idea of a master race was issued in good faith. But for example the Nazis tried to keep their clubs and institution elite, as soon as their popularity increased they shut down membership admission and as soon as their thug army of useful idiots increased in size, popularity and power (SA) they killed their leaders and created a new and even more elite one (SS). They wanted followers and useful idiots not a "master race". They literally advocated for the perfect human to be "Fast as a greyhound, tough as leather, hard as Kruppsteel" or how it's often lampooned "dumb, strong and water resistant". Those aren't qualities of the Übermensch, these are qualities of a tool, so if you want to be sarcastic rather those of an Untermensch (subhuman) and that was their ideal for members of what were supposed to be their own team...

So while the ideology that they propagated was in contrast with Nietzsche's ideas and rather makes followers of it, useful idiots/tools and trapped in a slave morality... it is not actually necessary that he Nazi leaders actually believed that. Like maybe their quest for power was after all less of a "race struggle" and more of personal struggle for power? In that case they might have been in the clear (at least with respect to Nietzsche) in terms of subjugating others, lying, deceiving, oppressing and killing others as long as that served their own egoistic goal, that would have been "good"... After all killing people and taking their stuff sure (at least at first) served their hedonistic pleasures (if they weren't bothered with the morality of that or adopted one where that isn't a problem) or torturing people might have served their "scientific curiosity".

Now what they believed in particular is a matter for historians and I do not want to entertain a narrative that the Nazi crimes were just the result of their upper echelon, as there were far more willing participants in that, which directly and indirectly made it possible. The point is rather that Nietzsche could actually be read as supportive of these things, without a necessary misunderstanding (under certain assumptions). Also it would not be the most despicable crimes that would necessarily produce the problems but rather the slave mentality of their followers willing to go along with it.

And in that regard Nietzsche is probably just abused in order to entertain the idea of morality being obsolete, in order to better subjugate them to a new morality, presented as their own, but only meant to be accepted not actually crafted or negotiated.

haxor789
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This article may be of relevance. It partially discusses how Heidegger gave a series of Nietzsche lectures, and traces how German society’s conceptualization of Nietzsche’s thought and significance developed over time.

What makes recognizing “the debate with Nietzsche’s metaphysics is a debate with nihilism” important for Heidegger by 1936 is that it arrives after a precipitous decline in his public involvement with the Nazi Party. In one sense, as Heidegger points out, what leads him away from the Nazi Party, as he “embark[s] on a series of courses and lectures on Nietzsche, which lasted until 1945,” is what he refers to as “a declaration of spiritual resistance.” I take this mean that, in an effort to move in “the right direction,” Nietzsche’s thought allows for a philosophically–grounded spiritual resistance to National Socialism, such that Heidegger is able to conclude that “in truth it is unjust to assimilate Nietzsche to National Socialism.” Yet, in another sense, this “declaration of spiritual resistance” puts forth a political aversion to the Nazi Party, by which Heidegger realizes that, for example, the party “ignores [Nietzsche’s] hostility to anti–Semitism.”

-- Hue Woodson

D J Sims
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