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I've been talking to a friend of mine about modus ponens (and modus tollens) and I'm wondering if I have totally misunderstood something fundamental about conditionals. Here are the two opposing positions:

#1 Apply truth value to the conditional premise as a whole, as follows.

P1. If I drop a ball ('p'), then it will hit the ground ('q')
P2. I dropped a ball ('p')
C. Therefore it hit the ground ('q')

In this case, I assign P1 to be true, and therefore if p is true, then the consequent q is DETERMINED to be true, ('C. Therefore it hit the ground').

#2 Apply truth values to both p and q variables individually, as follows.

P1. If I drop a ball ('p'), then it will hit the ground ('q')
P2. I dropped the ball
P3. It did *NOT* hit the ground

In this case, I'm asserting that p is true, and q is false, and that these assertions DETERMINE that P1 is therefore false. Now, I understand that if P2 is actually true, then P1 or P3 must be false, that's fine.

My issue here is with how to treat the conditional. Is case #1 correct, where p determines q, or is case #2 correct, where p and q determine the truth value of the conditional?

My understanding was along the lines of case #1 - that we assign a truth value to the conditional as a whole - "yes, it's true that if I drop a ball it will hit the ground", and if I then assert p as true, then q becomes true. If I don't assert p to be true (or assert p to be false) then q is basically "undefined".

In the second case, I assign values for both p and q, and that determines the truth value of the conditional. The problem arises when I assert p to be false. That is, I did NOT drop the ball, and it may or may not have hit the ground. The truth table for "p => q", says that if p is false, then "p => q" is true. That makes zero sense to me, because I haven't dropped the ball - I have no reason to say that the conditional is true, because I don't have any evidence for it.

So in that case, what does it even mean to say that the conditional is true? Can I then go around saying "I've proven that if I drop a ball, it will hit the ground", even though I've never dropped a ball to test it?

Another thought I had was that maybe I'm conflating the "if/then" in a conditional with a "cause/effect" kind of relationship, and I'm not sure that's proper.

Hopefully someone can make sense of my ramblings and help me out.

  • You have not "totally misunderstood" conditionals. There are just two+ different ones. The one used in everyday language is indicative conditional. It corresponds to your intuitions more or less, people tend to consider it meaningless when the premise is false. The one used in logic is called material conditional. It is defined for any truth values of the premise for technical convenience. It is true only in the sense that if you did not drop the ball then there is no counterexample. – Conifold Feb 20 '21 at 07:23
  • Thanks! I have some new terms to research :) I've also discovered the term "vacuous truth" which I guess applies to case #2 when p is false. I'm still unsure about whether case #1 - I assign a truth value to the conditional, or #2 - I assign truth values to BOTH p and q is correct. – Roman Holiday Feb 20 '21 at 09:12
  • @RomanHoliday So do the answers in the linked question sufficiently address your concerns? I ask because if so, I would mark this question as duplicate so that people finding your question will automatically be pointed towards the already existing answers there. – Philip Klöcking Feb 20 '21 at 10:00
  • @PhilipKlöcking - Not exactly, no. My major concern is with the correct PROCESS. All my life, I've been doing case #1 - I apply a truth value to the conditional as a whole. If I assign the conditional as true, then what I'm saying is "if p is true then it DETERMINES that q is true". Case #2 assigns truth values to both p and q, and then that DETERMINES the truth value of the conditional. Which is correct? – Roman Holiday Feb 21 '21 at 01:07
  • @Roman Holiday {P, Q, P ∧ Q, (P ∧ Q) ∧ R, P → Q, (P ∨ Q) ∧ P} all these are propositions, their truth value has nothing to do with the validity of an argument. When you do a modus ponens you are only following deductive reasoning, that does not say anything about the truth value of a proposition. P1 ∧ P2 ∧ P3 ∧ ... ⊢ C only means that if all the premises are true then it necessarily follows from them that C is true as well. That's all. I hope I have answered your question. – Voxywave Feb 21 '21 at 04:05
  • If p is false, then mathematicians would say that (p implies q) is vacuously true. – ramseysdream111 Feb 21 '21 at 18:43
  • @RomanHoliday https://mathvault.ca/math-glossary/#vt – ramseysdream111 Feb 21 '21 at 18:58

3 Answers3

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What you stumbled upon is the classical "formal logic implication vs material implication" dilemma.

What formal logic does is just it formulates the relations between the truth values of the (formal-logically related) predicates it considers. Indeed, classical FOL system holds that from falsity follows whatever. And remember that it has nothing to do with the notions of cause and effect, it's just a syntax game, if you will. So, all the "formal logic implication" tells us about the cause and effect is that if you assign some truth values to the predicates of the sentence, the whole sentence will acquire some other truth value.

Now, "material implication" (or "a rule of inference") as the name suggests, is a relation more involved in our physical (material) world, because it denotes a sentence that includes implication (as opposed to "formal logic implication" denoting just the symbol, a relation between predicates). I suggest googling "the paradoxes of material implication".

But your question is not about logic, it's about the concept of proof, so a scientist could answer it better than a logician.

I can just say that assigning a truth value to a sentence is something totally different than proving the empirical causality it entails.

k-wasilewski
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This has nothing to do with the problem of the material implication being an inadequate translation of conditionals.

The first expression is fine. Its logic is as you say the modus ponens (p → q) ∧ p ⊢ q, which just means the conditional "If both p → q and p are true, then q is true", which is obviously true.

However, the logic of the second expression is (p → q) ∧ p ⊢ ¬q, and this implication is simply false, and as such it is completely useless.

I suspect that what you were really after is the case where q is found to be false even as p is true. This, then, falsifies p → q.

Whatever the reasons for deciding that p, q and p → q are true or false, the modus ponens (p → q) ∧ p ⊢ q is true, but depending on the situation you may have to decide that for example p → q is false contrary to your initial belief. This is called belief revision and may be required each time some new fact crops up.

This is exactly what happens every time new empirical data come to falsify an accepted theory, including for example a scientific theory.

And, obviously, we shouldn't be fooled by the fact that in syllogistic arguments we normally assert that our premises are true. Asserting anything does not make it true. This is also why logic works so beautifully.

Unlike the material implication.

Speakpigeon
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  • The question, as I understand it, is about the notion of formal proof, and you're just talking about the syntax of basic logic... Maybe the idea of intuitionistic logic's constructive proof would qualify as an answer? – k-wasilewski Feb 20 '21 at 11:20
  • @k-wasilewski The question does not specify "formal logic" and is explicitly about "conditionals". Also, my discussion could be couched in formal terms. I'm not sure why you bring up intuitionistic logic. My explanation seems sufficient. Is there anything you don't understand in it? I also think I answer the question. Or do you think I do not? – Speakpigeon Feb 20 '21 at 18:10
  • Yeah, I can't find a precise answer to the question asked: "what makes a conditional true"... Regarding my answer and xomment: I was interested mainly in the thought of "if/else" vs "cause/effect". That's where I try to sketch the applications of material and formal implications, also the notion of a constructive proof. – k-wasilewski Feb 20 '21 at 18:29
  • @k-wasilewski 1. 'the question asked: "what makes a conditional true"' But this is not the question asked. - 2.'"if/else" vs "cause/effect"' This is irrelevant to the question asked. 3. 'material and formal implications' There is just one kind of implication, namely the one that corresponds to the conditional. The material implication, despite its name, is not an implication. Your answer is nothing but waffle. You don't answer the question and you try to answer a different question, without success. I don't think anyone understands what it is you are trying to say. – Speakpigeon Feb 21 '21 at 10:35
  • You're correct, the question is: "what does it even mean to say that the conditional is true?". 2. You're correct, however, I explicitly stated: "I was interested more in the thought of [...]". I was not refering to the "question". 3. You're correct about the definitions and about the fact that I don't answer the question, but you're wrong about me trying to answer some other question. As I said: "That's where I try to sketch the applications of [...]". Did you even read this comment you're arguing with?
  • – k-wasilewski Feb 21 '21 at 12:55