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I may have found something interesting from a rational point of view, I'd like to know what I should do about this if anything.

P. Either(A) the God at the very origin of our world has an origin or (B)the God at the very origin of the world has no origin, meaning an infinite timeline without a start.

C1. If(A) the God at the very origin of the world has an origin, (C)some being or (D)something is at his origin. If(A) => C or D

C2. If(C) it’s some being, this one should be then called the God at the very origin of our world => Contradiction => !C

C3. If(D) it’s something, the God at the very origin of our world is nothing more than the result of an explainable process and so is not at the very origin of our world => Contradiction => !D

C4. !C and !D => !A

C5. If(B) the God at the very origin of the world has an infinite timeline without a start, he either (E)made the world as an unique point in his timeline or (F)the world has always existed. If(B) => E or F

C6. If(E) he made the world as an unique point in his timeline, we could then find that he created the world after an infinite amount of time, meaning never => Contradiction => !E

C7. If(F) the world has always existed, we can’t make a chronology between the world and the God at the very origin of our world but god needs to be situated in time before our world if he is at its very origin => Contradiction => !F

C8. !E and !F => !B

C9. !A and !B => !P. The God at the very origin of our world can’t have something else than an origin or no origin, therefore the God at the very origin of our world doesn’t exist.

From what I can see, it seems to show that logic disagrees with the existence of God. What do you think of it?

Kristian Berry
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Gab Daud
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    Premise (P) assumes that there is a God, because you name it, and that there is an origin of our world, because you assert it in both horns of the dilemma. Both implicit assumptions in the premise are debatable. – Mauro ALLEGRANZA Nov 10 '22 at 10:32
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    A lot of arbitrary assumptions (not only P). More can be added: C.10. Time for God goes backwards, and God exists because it'll raise at the end of times, or C.10 God is such thing because God can create itself recursively. – RodolfoAP Nov 10 '22 at 10:32
  • Your both C10 are beyond logic, time doesn't goes backward, only the present exists and God creating himself is insane. I'm only discussing the logic possibilities here. – Gab Daud Nov 10 '22 at 10:37
  • @MauroALLEGRANZA the fact that God as the creator of our world exists implies the world have an origin. – Gab Daud Nov 10 '22 at 10:41
  • Yes, if you assume that if the world has an origin, then there is a creator, this seems reasonable, but we do not know IF the world has an origin (maybe not) and you assume that the purported creator is God, but you are entitled only to assume that if there is a creator than we name it God (maybe it is Superman). – Mauro ALLEGRANZA Nov 10 '22 at 10:45
  • I assume there is a creator to disprove it. Reducto ad absurdum. – Gab Daud Nov 10 '22 at 10:53
  • I don't really understand your argument about the name God, it seems irrelevant, you can call him how you want. I'm refuting his characteristics. – Gab Daud Nov 10 '22 at 11:07
  • So what kind of answer is the OP expecting? "Yes, you're right, I'm an atheist now because of this argument"? Or, "Yes, the argument is formally valid"? The latter seems within site parameters, to be fair (though whether the argument is valid when formalized will take more effort to show). Unfortunately, given the tone of the OP/comments, there is a risk that the question is eliciting opinions, however... – Kristian Berry Nov 10 '22 at 12:21
  • As I initially asked "I may have found something interesting from a rational point of view, I'd like to know what I should do about this if anything." I really don't know what to do with that. – Gab Daud Nov 10 '22 at 12:27
  • There’s a Christian theologian JC Beall who says God is contradictory and exists. I think you’re relying on classical logic which is not going to put much leverage on something godlike https://ndpr.nd.edu/reviews/the-contradictory-christ/ – J Kusin Nov 10 '22 at 15:21
  • Welcome to philosophy stack exchange! It is very helpful for new members to visit our help forum to learn how to write good questions, good answers, and have conversations in comments. https://philosophy.stackexchange.com/help – Dcleve Nov 10 '22 at 18:34
  • "after an infinite amount of time, meaning never" - Do you have some basis for the implication that "after an infinite amount <-> never"? For example, there are an infinite amount of integers preceding the integer 1. Does this imply that 1 isn't real? – Him Nov 10 '22 at 21:27
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    C1 to C4 is just the old "who made God?" argument, which believers have been countering by special pleading "God is the only being who can make itself". C6 does not follow, figure an infinite straight line, wherever we are on the line there is an infinite length both behind and after us, but we are at a point on the line nonetheless. Then there is the usual special pleading "God is out of time". Believers are essentially playing Calvin ball, the rules bends when they need. you can't win on their own field. – armand Nov 10 '22 at 23:54
  • "figure an infinite straight line, wherever we are on the line there is an infinite length both behind and after us, but we are at a point on the line nonetheless" Let me explain you where my premise come from: In an infinite timeline without a start, nothing can happen if it didn't happened an infinite amount of time before, otherwise you could only answer to the question "when did this happened for the first/second/etc... time?" with the answer after an infinite amount of time which leads to the conclusion that it would then never happen. Nothing new can happen in such a timeline. – Gab Daud Nov 11 '22 at 04:20
  • "For example, there are an infinite amount of integers preceding the integer 1" Don't mix tomatoes and bananas together, a best try would have been "there is an infinite amount of divisible space between two points, does this mean that the point is unreachable?" but I would discard it nonetheless, mostly thanks to Plank. – Gab Daud Nov 11 '22 at 05:17

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It used to be a presumption in philosophy that one could establish the nature of reality thru reasoning. This is essential to the "ontological argument", as well as counterarguments using the same methodology. The limits to reasoning about our universe were forcefully articulated by Kant in his The Critique of Pure Reason, and since then, the value of rationalism to characterize our world has only declined even more than argued by Kant in philosophic thinking.

Ontological arguments are generally seen as self contradictory, and if not that, at least to rely upon unjustified assumptions. I.E. they cannot show the necessity of a God. And as those who deploy them are generally trying to argue for a specific God claim, which IS contingent -- they are off topic as well.

Your counterargument relies upon a variety of suspect assumptions. The most notable is that you deploy a partial form of the Munchausen Trilemma to try to claim that specific possible solutions to the cause of the universe violate "logic". Note, the Munchausen Trilemma applies to ALL possible explanations of our universe, not just to God explanations, and every one of its three legs violates our conventions on fallacies. Is the Münchhausen trilemma really a trilemma? Seeking an explanation for our world is the essence of the scientific project, and calling all possible outcomes of that project "fallacies" is -- not really a problem for science, but instead for the argument that we should not accept explanations.

Your argument also presumes that time must consist of presentism, combined with the logic version of time which is state sequencing. But presentism is an invalid model of time, as other answers have pointed out. Here is a summary of the critiques of all three of our time models: The passing of time

Additionally, a God COULD in principle exist outside of time. This is the most common theological assumption among monotheists. You presume that a God outside of OUR time, would still be subject to time-prime. A time-like logical state sequencing. And your argument relies upon this to rebut the "God out of time" answer. But time-prime is NOT accepted by eternalist God theology, so your rebuttal relative to a God fails on this point.

Finally, you presume that logic is absolute, that there is a "one true logic". But logicians have established that this is not so -- there are an infinity of logics. https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/think/article/abs/guide-to-logical-pluralism-for-nonlogicians/EDFDFA1C9EB65DB71848DABD6B12D877 An infinity of possible logics, means one cannot make a logic argument and have confidence it applies to our world. And the failure of classical logic with relation to causation, exemplified by the Munchausen Trilemma, strongly suggests that classical logic does NOT apply to our world!

What you do with your discovery is at your discretion. You seem interested in disproving theism, and there are a lot of theists who resort to ontological arguments to justify their views. And those arguments, while they all mostly suffer from the same assumption issues that your counterargument does, could be challenged by your counterargument. A savvy theist could resort to the "God out of time" ploy, which would allow them to reject your counter. All this, however is in the realm of motivated reasoning. if motivated reasoning is all you are really interested in, then this may be all you want to know. Your argument is a useful counter to many versions of ontological arguments. It can be blocked by God out of time, so you would need to come up with some other argument against that debate ploy.

If instead you are interested in philosophic investigation, and the philosophic method, your argument offers a very different value. The basic philosophic mindset is to try to identify, and challenge, the walls of the boxes we think within. Sometimes after challenging them, one will want to live with those walls, but sometimes not. This critique of your argument has identified major mental walls you are using, which are rationalism, invalidly selectively applying the Trilemma to reject science, assuming one known invalid model of time, and assuming One True Logic. Learning to question walls, and to live with porous "walls" to your thinking, and understanding how to do that, is the philosophic project. And your question is a potentially highly useful starting point in that project.

Dcleve
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  • "Finally, you presume that logic is absolute, that there is a "one true logic". But logicians have established that this is not so -- there are an infinity of logics." I want to see where and how it is commonly established first and not some book. That seems beyond basic logic that rules are not universal if they are correct. For example mathematics: 1+1=2 the concept(not the writing) is universal – Gab Daud Nov 11 '22 at 03:37
  • The God out of time relies on something beyond logic (God doesn't have a chronology in his acts or thoughts) and so kind of make my point that logic doesn't like God. The same applies for God making himself. – Gab Daud Nov 11 '22 at 03:44
  • Now I must admit I didn't know the 3 potentials visions of time but I can't understand how Einstein model would discard the presentism. I can perfectly assume that time was created along with the 3 other dimensions when the Big Bang happened for example, the fact that the time doesn't go at the same speed depending on gravity/speed doesn't invalidate from my point of view that only the present exists. – Gab Daud Nov 11 '22 at 03:50
  • @GabDaud -- linear arithmetic does not apply to everything in our universe. Put two drops of water together, and one will only have one drop. Put two rabbits together, and one will end up with dozens of rabbits. 1+1 does not always equal 2 in our world. Learn to look for the exceptions that break the bounds of the walls in your head, rather than seeking confirmations of their truth. – Dcleve Nov 11 '22 at 04:24
  • @GabDaud -- a God that is not in time is perfectly logical, per classical logic. You are misusing the term, and misapplying "logic" simply to assumptions that you have never questioned. – Dcleve Nov 11 '22 at 04:26
  • @GabDaud -- by definition, if time is a dimension, then more than the present exists as time. – Dcleve Nov 11 '22 at 04:27
  • "by definition, if time is a dimension, then more than the present exists as time." I don't think so, the 4 dimensions are used to situate an object for example, we need to situate them in time in order to conceptualize things, but things don't need to "remember" where they were in order to exist. – Gab Daud Nov 11 '22 at 04:32
  • "linear arithmetic does not apply to everything in our universe. Put two drops of water together, and one will only have one drop. Put two rabbits together, and one will end up with dozens of rabbits. 1+1 does not always equal 2 in our world." I hope you realize that none of your example really disprove 1+1=2. You are using semantic to "disprove" mathematics. – Gab Daud Nov 11 '22 at 04:35
  • @GabDaud -- There is no "present" in a 4D space-time. Your instance that there is, shows you do not understand that theory of time. – Dcleve Nov 11 '22 at 05:28
  • @GabDaud -- In arithmetic, 1+1=2. Arithmetic is a math system, one of many, which may or may not apply to part of our world. in our world, arithmetic often does not apply. For arithmetic to apply to our world, objects must be conserved, and the operating space for them must be linear. Neither rabbits nor drops are conserved, and neither operates in a linear operating space. You clearly need to put more work into identifying and characterizing, then challenging the walls of assumptions in your head. – Dcleve Nov 11 '22 at 05:34
  • " Arithmetic is a math system, one of many, which may or may not apply to part of our world. in our world" but math are an universal concept nonetheless, just because you can mix two drops doesn't mean logic behind addition is wrong nor not universal. "There is no "present" in a 4D space-time", this part tends to show me that this version of time is inaccurate then, or that your interpretation of it is. – Gab Daud Nov 11 '22 at 05:43
  • I do believe in the "all mighty god of logic" where everything has a rational explanation. Even with what quantum physic has found, I'm still convinced that determinism is a thing, that things happen from a vast amount of reasons. Something might be really really hard to understand, sure, but beyond logic or irrational? No way. – Gab Daud Nov 11 '22 at 05:51
  • The thing is if this logic (of the universal truth) fails, then everything fail. We can't explain anything. So I'd better be right about that. – Gab Daud Nov 11 '22 at 05:57
  • @GabDaud -- Apply classical logic to your "One True Math" and "One True Logic" claims, and they can both be shown to fail multiple test cases. Your wishing they were true, does not change reality. Same with presentist time. We don't know yet how time works, all three models are useful, but all are falsified for some cases. We DO know how math and logic work -- there are an infinity of both, and we can find regions of our universe where applying one of those models is pragmatically very useful. Learn pragmatism, and to live with uncertainty -- that is how our universe is. – Dcleve Nov 11 '22 at 14:58