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Rarely do we hear "should have gone" in common speech.

Some background: My father immigrated to the US in the late 60s. He learned English first overseas, British English. Then he studied extensively in America.

He always corrected me and my brothers on us saying "you/I/they should have went". And after the 2,762nd time, finally I say "should have gone"

The reason I think it's a valid question is that go/gone/went are pretty ABC words. My guess is that the contraction "should've" is partly to blame - i.e. we speak so fast that we pick the more natural-sounding thing.

RegDwigнt
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    Lawks! I voted to close, but on a whim I checked NGrams afterwards (us UK speakers can sometimes seriously underestimate the power of US speakers to bend grammar). Astonishingly, @Adel has identified an appalling grammatical error that does in fact occur. It's not 'so widely used', admittedly. In fact quite a few references in print seem to be either pointing out the bad grammar, or deliberately affecting 'uneducated speech'. Nevertheless, there are obviously people who actually say it in earnest - which I would never have believed before now. – FumbleFingers Jun 23 '11 at 03:17
  • @FumbleFingers: I hear it all the time, and also with other verbs — though I can't remember which ones. – Neil G Jun 23 '11 at 03:38
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    @FumbleFingers: Googling: "have went", 5 million hits; "have came", 6 million; "have ate", 1 million (including a song by Green Day: http://www.azlyrics.com/lyrics/greenday/wordsimighthaveate.html); "have beat", 4 million; "have threw", an amazing, 0.1 million. – Neil G Jun 23 '11 at 04:31
  • @mplungjan: Um. I did look it up, which is why I posted my comment (after voting to close). I still think it would be interesting if someone said they actually use this form, and believe it to be acceptable in their dialect. But I suspect anyone who could say that would probably be incapable of writing it anyway, on account of being so poorly-educated. So I don't really think the question is going anywhere. – FumbleFingers Jun 23 '11 at 06:10
  • I was making a Python joke. – mplungjan Jun 23 '11 at 06:25
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    What examples those Ngrams and Googlings should have went awry when it was interpreted incorrectly. It is possible that the words they have came from other contexts. (But yeah I'll admit this construction is quite common.) – Cerberus - Reinstate Monica Jun 24 '11 at 05:02
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    You make me think of time-traveller's grammar: I should went there yesterday tomorrow, but if I was will be busy, I might have to postpone. Ask me earlier. – Jon Purdy Jun 24 '11 at 20:20
  • @FumbleFingers: In the Long Island area, people do this very frequently; this includes people from all walks of life. Even graduate students. It's just a dialect; relax! :) One of my colleagues actually wrote a paper on this phenomenon, and I am waiting on him to email a copy to me. – Kosmonaut Jun 24 '11 at 21:48
  • @Kosmonaut: Yup. That was just me being dialectally parochial again, apparently. EL&U is very slowly training me to recognise and accept the vast range of usages that are perfectly normal at least somewhere in the English-speaking world. My biggest hurdle, obviously, being that oftentimes I'm reluctant to accept that Americans are on the same planet as me. Second hurdle is that I easily forget the difference between standards in writing and in common speech. – FumbleFingers Jun 25 '11 at 02:33
  • @Kosmonaut: It really depends on whether you're a prescriptivist or a descriptivist. Part of the beauty of any language is the power of expression. The problem with using the perfect aspect as a "formal register" is that you sacrifice what the perfect aspect normally means: an indication of causality. Personally, I think that's a huge loss. – Neil G Jun 25 '11 at 17:25
  • @Neil G: This isn't a replacement across the board. This is just a different construction of the conditional perfect. No expressive information is lost at all. Each standard version has the nonstandard equivalent that is unambiguous. It's like if you used "singed", "spinned" and "sleeped" instead of "sang", "spun", and "slept" — you're just replacing one arbitrary form with another. – Kosmonaut Jun 25 '11 at 17:54
  • @Kosmonaut: You're right that in this case nothing is lost. But, this replacement often goes hand-in-hand with using the perfect aspect as a formal register — because the speaker has lost the mental distinction between past indicative and present perfect. At that point, something definitely is lost. – Neil G Jun 25 '11 at 17:56
  • @Neil G: There isn't any evidence of that happening. But even if it did happen, or something like that happened, do you think speakers would lose the ability to express a certain idea or thought? We lack many grammatical features that are fundamental in other languages. And yet, we can express every thought fully. – Kosmonaut Jun 25 '11 at 19:28
  • @Kosmonaut: It may not mean much, but I have my own anecdotal evidence of that happening. E.g., I've noticed the perfect aspect incorrectly used in wikipedia articles. It might "allow us to express every though fully," but it's less efficient to use auxiliary words (as we do to make up for other missing features) when we already have grammar to do the trick. It's this force to hang on to succinct expressive power that consistently resists oversimplification. – Neil G Jun 25 '11 at 20:20
  • @Neil G: "it's less efficient to use auxiliary words (as we do to make up for other missing features) when we already have grammar to do the trick." How do you know that? If the way you describe is inherently more efficient, why would such syntactic features ever disappear? (I know this is a complex question — just putting it out there to think about.) – Kosmonaut Jun 25 '11 at 20:57
  • @Kosmonaut: It's a good question. The one word difference between "I drank too much" and "I have drunk too much" would otherwise have to be replaced by half a dozen. So, between people who distinguish these constructions, it's clearly more efficient to use them both. I recognize that it seems condescending to categorize English speakers, but I don't mean to condescend. – Neil G Jun 25 '11 at 21:07
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    This is not a new phenomenon at all; consider this Ngram. Apparently "would have went" was quite common in the 18th century. – Peter Shor Dec 19 '11 at 02:45

2 Answers2

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Here's "have gone" and "have went" discussed on Linguist List, where the conclusion is that neither is exactly incorrect:

With that in mind, if you belong to a dialect community in which people consistently say "I have went..." instead of "I have gone...", then among your friends and community, there is nothing wrong with "It seems to have went well." If writing to someone outside the community, or a formal document or school assignment, it were better to use "It seems to have gone well." If your community of English generally says "I have gone..", then "to have went..." in that case is in fact "incorrect", that is, ungrammatical -- contrary to the patterns of that dialect.

This discussion about "would have went" also suggests that speakers who do use the phrase might switch to "would have gone" in a setting that demands a formal register, like the classroom or in writing.

Also discussing the need to switch dialects is this paper, Responding to African American Vernacular English (AAVE) in Written Assignments [PDF, see page 13] - the author suggests that "have went" is common in spoken AAVE but may not be common in writing even when other features of AAVE are present:

Constructions as that in the first sentence [I had did report cards for my student teaching...], although common in AAVE (the use of the past tense rather than past participle in irregular verbs: “I should have went”) are very rare in these papers. Almost all AAVE usages involve dropped endings.

(The writer is discussing a small sample of graduate student work selected for analysis)


I don't know enough to explain exactly why some dialects of English use the past participle and some use the past tense, or whether the use is appreciably changing in recent years.

I've found plenty of half-formed theories for why past tense is used, but the only idea I see that doesn't totally rely on putting down speakers of one dialect or another is that "gone" is 'a past participle which is not formed by the simple addition of -ED' and so perhaps a regularization is occurring. This idea is a little more obvious if you look at some examples of regular and irregular past tense and past participles:

present | past | pp
move moved moved
go went gone

aedia λ
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    +1. Thank you for looking at this phenomenon without prejudgment. On Long Island, "shoulda went" is the most common phrasing among all locals. It is a dialectal variation, not a mistake (if it were, it would have to be one that people repeatedly happen to make in certain large, localized groups — very strange). Certainly, it is clear which one is standard, should be taught in school, and should be used in all formal situations. But by characterizing this pattern as a simple error, we miss out on an opportunity to understand language change. – Kosmonaut Jun 24 '11 at 20:33
  • I should add that these Long Islanders go to some of the best public schools in the country, and can easily shift between the standard and dialectal phrasings. (It amazes me how easily people can blame dialectal variation on ignorance.) – Kosmonaut Jun 24 '11 at 20:41
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    +1 because I now like this answer better than the others. Partly sincee I now realise the usage is 'dialectal' rather than 'ignorant' in many/most cases. I think there is yet more to uncover regarding why it occurs, but it's obviously to do with the fact that the 'meta-verb' we're talking about here is a weird hybrid of to go and to wend, which we ordinarily identify using just the first form. Both past participles are logically/historically valid - it's just that the vast majority of us happen to use only gone after the conditionals would/should/could. – FumbleFingers Jun 25 '11 at 03:06
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    @FumbleFingers: You would probably be interested to know that it's not just for went that this occurs. It's a widespread replacement of the simple past for the past participle in should've/would've/could've constructions. For example: "could've swam", "should've drank", etc. It doesn't happen with every single irregular verb, but a large number of them. – Kosmonaut Jun 28 '11 at 01:59
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    @Kosmonaut: Interested? And then some! Look at these Google hits: should've drank:126k; should have drank:1050k; should've drunk:49.5k; should have drunk:2110k. Why on earth should contracted "have" be so massively associated with the (to me, gratingly ungrammatical) choice of past tense form? Is it really the same as gone/went, which are essentially two different verbs that got tangled up? – FumbleFingers Jun 28 '11 at 02:15
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    ...by which I mean that the 'non-standard' drank is only half as common as drunk when it follows have. But it's three times more common when it follows the contraction 've. – FumbleFingers Jun 28 '11 at 02:20
  • @FumbleFingers: One analysis is that shoulda and the like got patterned after things like kinda ("I kinda drank" is using the correct verb form). Incidentally, I wouldn't say Google hits are balanced enough to conclude one is truly more common (unless we have an order of magnitude difference), but certainly this construction's presence is not insignificant. – Kosmonaut Jun 28 '11 at 13:11
  • @Kosmonaut: Maybe it's not an "order of magnitude", but in my book a 6-fold reversal of the preference for went over gone purely on the basis of whether it's preceded by a 'spoken contraction' must surely be "significant", rather than just "not insignificant". There may be several factors, and your kinda may be one. Maybe some speakers/writers know it's non-standard and take more trouble to be 'correct' with have than with 've. I just feel there is a real pattern here, which probably has meaningful reason[s]. – FumbleFingers Jun 28 '11 at 17:42
  • ...apropos which you yourself commented against @Ham and Bacon's answer that this is a spoken language phenomenon. I'm still not sure what exactly that means, if the usage is also supposed to be 'dialectally standard' in some parts of the US. But those Google hits could suggest it's more common in "reported speech", as implied by the contraction. – FumbleFingers Jun 28 '11 at 17:46
  • @FumbleFingers: dialectally standard usually means "spoken language phenomenon", because people usually write in the standard — or much closer to the standard — than the way they speak. We did some experimenting on this in my department, and there was a definite speaking/writing difference in usage. – Kosmonaut Jun 29 '11 at 01:14
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That is confusion of the past tense with the past participle, and it's unfortunately really common in the US.

My guess it's because the speaker is interpreting "should have" as a particle indicating expedience and trying to combine it with the past indicative.

It should instead be that "should" is that particle, and "have" forms the perfect aspect. You always want the perfect aspect in this case because if you "should have done something" it's because it would have had some effect on the present. The perfect aspect indicates a causal relationship.

Also, for most verbs the past participle and past tense are homonyms, so the error rarely allows itself to be corrected.

Neil G
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    Kind of on the technical side, but once parsed, very plausible. (To be clear, I'm not complaining about this answer being overly technical.) – John Y Jun 23 '11 at 03:36
  • My degree includes linguistics (admittedly a long time ago), but I can't for the life of me understand what you're saying. OP notwithstanding, almost no-one uses this form, yet it does occur. Possibly always by non-native speakers, but are you saying there are more such in the US? btw - in the UK there's a long-running adverising campaign by Specsavers (opticians) based around "Should've gone to Specsavers". They would've sacked anyone on the ad agency team who'd suggested went there, I'm sure. – FumbleFingers Jun 23 '11 at 04:03
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    @FumbleFingers: I've definitely heard it from native speakers. Did you try googling the phrase? – Neil G Jun 23 '11 at 04:16
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    @Neil http://ngrams.googlelabs.com/graph?content=should+have+went%2Cshould+have+gone&year_start=1900&year_end=2000&corpus=6&smoothing=3 – FumbleFingers Jun 23 '11 at 04:20
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    I think it would be helpful if all EL&U members included at least 'location' on their 'info' screen. What 'native speakers' are we talking about here? – FumbleFingers Jun 23 '11 at 04:23
  • @FumbleFingers: Those are books, right? Regular people (21 million results!): http://www.google.com/webhp?ie=UTF-8&ion=1&nord=1#sclient=psy&hl=en&nord=1&site=webhp&source=hp&q=%22should%20have%20went%22&aq=&fp=1 – Neil G Jun 23 '11 at 04:23
  • @Neil G: Fair enough. 21M hits for should have went, as opposed to 327M for should have gone. So is that 6% ignorant non-native speakers, some oddball dialect, or what? Where do you hear it? – FumbleFingers Jun 23 '11 at 04:34
  • @FumbleFingers: Unfortunately, I think most of it is native speakers (click some of the links.) My impression is that most of it is a result of poor education and illiteracy. Some of it is "anti-intellectualism," which I think is more prevalent in young American culture. See, for example http://www.eyesonobama.com/blog/content/id_31260/title_McCain-Advertises-Anti-Intellectualism/ – Neil G Jun 23 '11 at 04:41
  • I'll put this into 'chat' if you think the issue has legs. I can't really see we're promoting EL&U objectives by pursuing issues of illiteracy and "anti-intellectualism" here. Or maybe we should use 'meta' to gauge opinion on the general attitude to questions of this type. Which I disapprove of, obviously. – FumbleFingers Jun 23 '11 at 05:19
  • Thank you Neil, and thanks to all of you! I especially like that googlelabs link, that's very cool! – Caffeinated Jun 23 '11 at 22:59
  • +1 Neil is right. The subject is making an observation in the context of a point in time that has already passed. "I am going to the store" => "I should have gone to the store." Not: "I am wenting to the store" => "I should have went to the store." – Mike Christian Jun 23 '11 at 23:14
  • @Mike Christian: Am I missing something? That doesn't make sense. Both gone and went are past tense forms, one being the past participle and one being the simple past form. And with your analogy... going becomes gone; in the other dialect, going becomes went — both undergo a change in form, and both become past tense forms, so what are you trying to prove with that exactly? Why should the second version demand went as the present form of the verb? – Kosmonaut Jun 24 '11 at 21:29
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    @Neil G: 24 hours later I find I'm with you and Kosmonaut. I still consider went to be poor grammar, obviously. But as usual, sleeping on it changes my opinion. Now I'm quite happy to accept there's a significant minority for whom the usage is nothing exceptional. You can get used to anything, apparently. – FumbleFingers Jun 25 '11 at 02:45
  • Can someone explain the downvotes? I'd like to improve this answer if possible. – Neil G Jun 25 '11 at 17:16
  • @Kosmonaut: No, I don't think you're missing anything, but I should rephrase. Going is the present tense of go. Went is the past tense of go, and Gone is its past participle. Using went in the context of this question doesn't make sense, because the past tense is being used in place of the past participle. Therefore, "should have went" sounds to me as if the present tense of the verb would be "wenting". You are correct in stating my comment makes no sense. (Of course, I could be totally wrong, but it's an opinion.) – Mike Christian Jun 28 '11 at 01:21
  • You should know that I like to play with language. This is a perfect example. I'm sure many of my comments rub people backwards, but that's the point. There are many nuances that must be observed in the English language, and many people are quite snobbish about some of them. I like to grab one, get it all worked up, and then ride it home, rodeo style. My wife hates this particular hobby of mine. (Sorry, sweetie!) I recall a Mr. Churchill who liked to do the same... – Mike Christian Jun 28 '11 at 01:28
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    @Neil G: A down vote is cast when a question "does not show any research effort; it is unclear, or not useful." Down votes for an answer is issued when "[the] answer is not useful." – Mike Christian Jun 28 '11 at 01:35
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    @NeilG The Guardian quoting an American soldier Skarlatos (I'm not sure whether he is really a native speaker): “If that guy’s weapon had been functioning properly, I don’t even want to think about how it would have went,” – imz -- Ivan Zakharyaschev Oct 08 '15 at 21:34
  • This is an old thread, but I'd just like to point out that this usage seems to be almost standard in some parts of the country. For example, here in Buffalo, NY, my wife says it, her family says it, even my son's middle school teachers say (and write) it. It's part of the local dialect. – Isvara Oct 31 '18 at 06:06