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Obviously, pasta is a loanword, but generally loanwords are pronounced with the closest vowels which already exist in the language.

In American English, the "a" in pasta is the same vowel that I hear in RP British English words like "grass", "fast" and "arm". Which is strange, because that isn't how Americans pronounce words with a long a sound in RP such as "fast", "last" and "bath".

In British English, "pasta" has a short A. In my dialect, there is no trap-bath split, so I pronounce "pasta" the same as I would words such as "past" and "cast".

I asked in the original question if pasta had the same vowel as "lost" and "mop". The answer seems to have been no, but that it is the same vowel as father.

This is a little confusing, and I understand that most American accents have a "father-bother" merger, so it's confusing to me that pasta does share a vowel with father, but not with lost

In order to narrow it down, in terms of their vowels, how does the following list fit together in the majority of American Accents (I've grouped them based on my accent)

calm
father

bother
mop
lost
on

fast
pasta

(I've left out "caught" words, as I don't think it's relevant here, but if I'm wrong and should have chosen some different words, then please do correct me).

Some_Guy
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    Does "father" sound different to you? – MDHunter Apr 06 '17 at 12:45
  • Google cot-caught merger and see if that helps you. – 1006a Apr 06 '17 at 12:45
  • Where specifically are you hearing this? I'm in the Midwest, and don't hear anything unusual in the pasta vowel (I'm unmerged, and use/hear the caught vowel, same as in the name Costa or word roster), but that doesn't mean there aren't dialects that do it differently. – 1006a Apr 06 '17 at 12:50
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    Well, first you have to decide how to pronounce "pasta". – Hot Licks Apr 06 '17 at 12:51
  • @1006a Honestly, I've always noticed it when watching how they pronounce pasta in friends. Maybe it's the Italian influence, but it's the same here http://dictionary.cambridge.org/pronunciation/english/pasta . The American one is the same vowel in RP English "Past" to my ears. – Some_Guy Apr 06 '17 at 12:52
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    pasta has the father vowel. Both lost and grass are totally different. – tchrist Apr 06 '17 at 12:53
  • @tchrist They're very close in pasta and BrE grass, though, more so than between pasta and (some?) AmE grass. I'm curious - in AmE, for those that pronounce grass with the vowel sound of air (I'm approximating), do they pronounce pasta with a similar vowel sound (to air)? – Lawrence Apr 06 '17 at 13:08
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    Spanish and Italian only have the FATHER vowel for their "a", so taco and pasta have that vowel. So too do basta, capo, canto, casa, cha-cha, chakra, drama, fado, gaga, haha, java, llama, lava, macho, mambo, mama, masa, Paco, raza. I have never heard any American use the /æ/ vowel in those words, only the /ɑ/ vowel. Americans tease Brits about having the "wrong" vowel in their macho taco pasta. :) – tchrist Apr 06 '17 at 13:14
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    @Lawrence I can't answer that because I've never heard Americans pronouncing /æ/ in those words, only ever /ɑ/. Regarding air, many of us have not TRAP's /æ/ in that word but rather the same /e/ monophthong that we also have in merry, marry, Mary, make, made, aim, gain, game, grape, gate. – tchrist Apr 06 '17 at 13:51
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    @tchrist could be wrong here, but I think "make - merry" is a minority one still. I say that, because it always jumps out at me when I hear words like "play" and "make" in those accents, in the same way I always notice those American accents that pronounce "egg" like "vague" and "plague"; if everyone was doing it, it wouldn't jump out so much. Also, I think Lawrence says "air", I think he is referring to the fact to the standard vowel in American "grass"; it sounds a lot like the British "less" and "air" so I think that's what he was trying to describe. – Some_Guy Apr 06 '17 at 13:56
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    @Lawrence no. That's what brought my question about. Americans who pronounce the words "past" and "fast" with that "eh" sound, pronounce "pasta" with the "ah" sound, which always sounded odd to me. see here: dictionary.cambridge.org/pronunciation/english/past dictionary.cambridge.org/pronunciation/english/pasta dictionary.cambridge.org/pronunciation/english/fast – Some_Guy Apr 06 '17 at 14:22
  • @tchrist please see updated question, these comments have cleared up a lot for me with some of my assumptions about American vowels, and I think the question is more pointed now – Some_Guy Apr 06 '17 at 15:03
  • Ranging between somewhat related and so closely related as to be near- or exact duplicates, please see the following questions which I here order strictly by seniority (eldest first) not by how closely related they are: http://english.stackexchange.com/q/2337, http://english.stackexchange.com/q/7998, http://english.stackexchange.com/q/10155, http://english.stackexchange.com/q/31022, http://english.stackexchange.com/q/70927, http://english.stackexchange.com/q/77510, http://english.stackexchange.com/q/96434, http://english.stackexchange.com/q/138705, [to be continued] – tchrist Apr 06 '17 at 15:33
  • [continued] http://english.stackexchange.com/q/143052, http://english.stackexchange.com/q/146641, http://english.stackexchange.com/q/276763, http://english.stackexchange.com/q/303766, http://english.stackexchange.com/a/333145, http://english.stackexchange.com/q/334210, http://english.stackexchange.com/q/334557, http://english.stackexchange.com/q/342107, http://english.stackexchange.com/q/352705, http://english.stackexchange.com/q/367098, http://english.stackexchange.com/q/373277. Pay especial note to "linguisticky" answers by John Lawler, RegDwight, nohat, sumelic, Peter Shor, etc. – tchrist Apr 06 '17 at 15:35
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    @tchrist has it "right" by California standards ..as he put it "pasta has the father vowel. Both lost and grass are totally different" – Tom22 Apr 06 '17 at 18:47
  • In this day and age of online dictionaries that will play a recording at the touch of a button, why are you having so much trouble with this? – aparente001 Apr 08 '17 at 20:31

1 Answers1

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Most American speakers use more-or-less the vowel of RP (Received Pronunciation, the most common or standard "reference" British English accent) "grass", "fast" and "arm" in all of pasta, father, mop, don. But not lost; that has a different vowel in "GA" ("General American," the "standard" reference American accent). "Lost" and "mop" have different vowels in "General American" English due to a vowel change similar to the one that is responsible for the different vowels of "last" and "lap" in RP British English. "Pasta" and "father" have the same vowel as "mop," but not the same vowel as "lost" in GA.

The vowel in the word "father" is typically written /ɑː/ when transcribing British English, with a vowl length marker (ː) because British English is often analyzed as having phonological vowel length.

Vowel length is less important (or at least, less obvious) in the phonological system of American English, so usually it is just written /ɑ/ when transcribing American speech.

Of course, as with all IPA vowel symbols, this is a simplified representation of a variable set of actual vowel sounds.

Distribution of /ɑ/ in a typical American English accent

You can see some explanation in the Wikipedia article Pronunciation of English ⟨a⟩. Basically, /ɑ/ is usual in rhotic American English accents for father, before /r/ (also analyzed as a unitary rhotic vowel /ɑ˞/), and for the majority of speakers, in some words that historically had a "short o" such as lot. The exception is words like cloth and lost where "short o" ended up being changed to the "aw" vowel of thought.

Words like palm also historically had /ɑ/, but the common restoration of /l/ has caused some speakers to change the vowel to the thought vowel (/ɔ/).

Community
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herisson
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    Lost has the THOUGHT vowel. – tchrist Apr 06 '17 at 12:59
  • @tchrist: whoops, I even mentioned the cloth set but I forgot "lost" is in it. Thanks; fixing. – herisson Apr 06 '17 at 13:00
  • So I hadn't thought of the "palm" (without the l) vowel. Reading more about the trap bath split, I see that elongated "a" sounds then merged with the existing "long a" of father and palm, whereas I'd been thinking that vowel was a new creation starting at that split (based on an observation that older speakers of northern accents tend to have a short a in father as well as bath and grass) – Some_Guy Apr 06 '17 at 13:09
  • Most but not all words of the form *CaCa* and *CaCo* in English have the /ɑ/ FATHER vowel for that first "a": for example basta, canto, capo, casa, cha-cha, chakra, drama, Fado, flaco, gaga, grappa, ha-ha, Java, lava, llama, macho, mama, mambo, masa, natto, Paco, pasta, raza, taco. Some words of longer assimilation have been spelled with a doubled consonant to indicate that they should be said with the /æ/ TRAP vowel: lasso, lassie, calla lily, canna lily. But hosta lilies sounds like pasta lilies save for the h/p distinction. :) – tchrist Apr 06 '17 at 13:39
  • @tchrist out of those words that I have ever said/heard, more than half of them have a short "a" sound in my accent (and I think BrE in general). Lasso and lassie are both to prevent /z/ I think rather than /ɑ/. Canna and calla are both from Latin, and preserve the original spelling. Canto, capo, casa, chakra, grappa, mama, mambo, paco, pasta, natto, taco would be short for me (and I think all other Brits). Long a would be only be cha-cha, drama, gaga, java, lava, llama and raza. Basta, Fado, flaco and masa, I've never heard out loud. – Some_Guy Apr 06 '17 at 14:18
  • @Some_Guy There is also plaza and playa, both with the a of father rather than the one of lazy. But patio and canyon have the third a from cat. I would avoid calling any of those short and long though: American children are taught to call the /e/ of lazy "long a". – tchrist Apr 06 '17 at 14:38
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    In my Midwestern twang (pre NCS) father, pasta, arm (and palm and casa) go together; grass, fast, past (and capo) have the same sound. – Xanne Apr 06 '17 at 14:51
  • do people really say "arm" and "grass" the same way ? Hmm.. shows you how we don't necessarily hear things as people say them ; ) – Tom22 Apr 06 '17 at 18:42
  • @Tom22 no, I think you've misread the comment – Some_Guy Apr 06 '17 at 18:49
  • @Some_Guy .. well I quoted him verbatim .. I did mean to include a wink though after the "right" part ; ) ... I'm not sure there is a "right" way to pronounce vowels.. only "common" ways – Tom22 Apr 06 '17 at 18:53
  • @Tom22: Yep; in many British accents "grass" rhymes with "arse" and "arm" rhymes with "Guam." – herisson Apr 06 '17 at 19:36
  • @tom22 turns out it was me who misread your comment, sorry – Some_Guy Apr 07 '17 at 13:17
  • I apologize for the downvote. I forgot what RP means. I will edit the answer so that I can change my vote. – aparente001 Apr 08 '17 at 20:32
  • Do you want to take out my "sort of standard"? I didn't know about the southern thing. – aparente001 Apr 08 '17 at 20:37
  • @aparente001: I think it's accurate; I just changed it to avoid any possible arguments about the "standard"ness of accents from e.g. Northern England or Scotland. – herisson Apr 08 '17 at 20:39
  • What do they do with pasta in the north? (Can I say "in the north" to encompass both?) I consulted a dictionary that claimed to have a British recording of pasta, and they only gave one version. – aparente001 Apr 08 '17 at 20:41
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    @aparente001: I believe in northern British accents, "pasta" would have the vowel of "trap", as in RP, but unlike in RP, "fast" and "bath" would also have the vowel of "trap" for many northern speakers. – herisson Apr 08 '17 at 20:43