Should mistook be pronounced like “mis + took” — or like “misdook” (like the t in mistake)?
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6Do you find that latter pronunciation in any dictionary? – Robusto Mar 13 '24 at 16:55
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30The same t sound in both is the same. No d sound. – Lambie Mar 13 '24 at 18:21
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10@Lambie I'll let this video explain it. If you take a recording of (say) the word "store" and remove the initial "s," it clearly sounds like "door," not "tore." – alphabet Mar 13 '24 at 19:00
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12@alphabet - interesting video, but representing the speech as a waveform leads to a confusion between a stop and a space. The stop is part of the speech, so when they "remove the ['s]" what they're really removing is "the [s + stop]". If you isolate the bit they removed (I just had a play with Audacity myself), it's clearly something other than a simple "s" sound - which is probably why they don't show that. – ItWasLikeThatWhenIGotHere Mar 13 '24 at 19:54
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3The position of the tongue in the /t/ sound will be slightly different due to the following vowel. – Stuart F Mar 14 '24 at 10:03
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Should suggests that there is a prescriptive reason for choosing a pronunciation, and the question doesn't indicate what objective criteria we should use. On the whole wide variations in pronunciation are tolerated in English; opinions based on regional usage will necessarily differ – djs Mar 14 '24 at 10:47
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Clarify please - does this question have a regional influence? That is, are you thinking of a specific accent or regional dialect? Or even a group bias? For example, I imagine Boxers (pugilists) might say "misdook" if they've taken too many blows to the face. – Criggie Mar 14 '24 at 11:29
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2@alphabet Yes, if one does just about anything to anything else, one can come up with exceptions to pronunciations in connected speech. If you remove the s from store, you no longer have an emporium, do you? But you might have issues with tores in your cones. – Lambie Mar 14 '24 at 14:29
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7You keep asking questions that suggest you are a native speaker of Hindi or Mandarin or Korean who is being miscued by your first language, particularly with respect to conflicting romanization systems. For example unlike English, Mandarin contrasts /tʰ/ with /t/ *phonemically* — but lacks a /d/ phoneme altogether. Romanization systems conflict in their representation of these, so Wade–Giles romanizes /t/ to t where Pinyin romanizes /t/ to d. See here. But this is valid only for Mandarin, not for English. – tchrist Mar 14 '24 at 15:03
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3@tchrist Hats off to you. boy. [haha] When I have done similar analyses on poor translations cited by OPs, I've had my ears boxed. Very good catch. – Lambie Mar 14 '24 at 18:06
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I think the question you actually asked in the title is getting lost in the minutiae of how to technically describe it. In my personal experience, the answer to the question you actually asked is "it can be either way." (I personally pronounce the "st" in "mistook" differently from "mistake", in the way I believe you're asking about. Native speaker of American English, age 38, from California.) – Glenn Willen Mar 14 '24 at 23:05
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1I suggest they're not pronounced the same. With no formal phonetics, I hear 'mistook' using a sound half-way between 'T' and 'D' and 'mistake' more like three-quarters of the way to 'D' from 'T'. Almost separately, how is this not at least greatly influenced, if not dependant upon the speaker's accent? – Robbie Goodwin Mar 15 '24 at 23:00
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2@tchrist OP turns out to be a native speaker of Cantonese according to a post of theirs from Japanese SE, if that helps :). – magni Mar 16 '24 at 02:46
3 Answers
Phonemically, both "took" and "mistook" use /t/, not /d/ or /ɾ/ (the d-like "intervocalic tap" you hear in "butter" or "ladder" in certain dialects).
Phonetically, on the other hand, there is a difference. All English fortis (which in English are voiceless) plosives (including /t/) have two allophones: aspirated [tʰ] and unaspirated [t]. When syllable initial, /t/ is actually [tʰ], we just drop the little superscript [ʰ] because the voicing distinction is usually enough, and it only comes up in cases like this. But when a plosive is no longer leading the syllable, it loses all its aspirations, and becomes unaspirated. Specifically in this case, [tʰ] becomes [t].
This is what you are hearing: Not a /d/, but a hopeless, unaspirated /t/. It's still a /t/, still voiceless, but it is also unaspirated, and voiced plosives, in English, are always unaspirated, to the point that people would be more likely to mistake a clipped recording of, say, "scold" for "gold" than "cold". Or, indeed, "stake" for "dake" - if "dake" were a common enough word.
As to your actual, underlying question: Yes, "mistook" is pronounced with the /s/ in the onset of the second syllable, rather than the coda of the first. The word, and its present form "mistake", have been around long enough that even people who study these things for a living might not realize that it's the prefix "mis-" appended to the verb "take". As such, the /s/ moves from first coda to second onset and the /t/ loses its aspiration as a result
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Comments have been moved to chat; please do not continue the discussion here. Before posting a comment below this one, please review the purposes of comments. Comments that do not request clarification or suggest improvements usually belong as an answer, on [meta], or in [chat]. Comments continuing discussion may be removed. – NVZ Mar 18 '24 at 02:31
"mis + took", both are pronounced the same.
/mɪˈsteɪk/
/mɪˈstʊk/
Both have the "st" sound, there is no "d" when pronouncing either of these words.
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1@alphabet really? If if say 'dake' and 'dook' with 'mis-' before them they don't sound like 'mistake' and 'mistook'. – Weather Vane Mar 13 '24 at 19:28
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5@alphabet - you've linked to it twice, so I'll jump in twice. That's a great video about the psychology of expectation : suggest that people are hearing English when they're hearing French, or show pictures of the words you want them to hear, and you can fool anyone. Trouble is it doesn't acknowledge what it's doing. Peter Kay's Misheard Song Lyrics is funnier. Anyhow, I'm off to listen to Led Zeppelin backwards. – ItWasLikeThatWhenIGotHere Mar 13 '24 at 20:24
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1@alphabet you seem keen to prove the dictionaries wrong, but there aren't any words in English that begin with 'sd-'. How, then can the 't' sound like a 'd'? – Weather Vane Mar 13 '24 at 20:52
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1@WeatherVane I've posted my own answer below that should (hopefully) clarify things. – alphabet Mar 14 '24 at 03:03
It is indeed, quite often, "misdook." Basically.
I took the liberty of downloading (American English) pronunciations of "mistook" from six online dictionaries, then removing everything up until the initial period of silence, i.e. the "mis." These pronunciations are from Collins, Merriam-Webster, OxfordLD, The Free Dictionary, Wiktionary, and Longman.
You can hear the results here.
As you can hear, the first four sound quite clearly like "dook." Only the last two sound like "took." (The one from OxfordLD might be somewhere in the middle, but to me it certainly seems closer to "dook.")
Wait, what?
Geoff Lindsey explains what's going on here. English does not contrast /t/ and /d/ after /s/, unless the /s/ is at the end of a morpheme. Unless you pronounce "mistake" as "mis|take," i.e. as a sequence of two separate morphemes, then this sound change will occur. The result is that the /t/ in "mistake" will be unaspirated. An unaspirated [t] at the start of a word will sound much more like a word-initial /d/ than a word-initial /t/, unless the word is itself preceded by a voiced sound, so if you chop off the "mis" it will sound like "dook," not "took." (In fact, a word starting with the phoneme /d/ is often pronounced with a partially, if not fully, devoiced [t]; the contrast between word-initial /t/ and /d/ is, when not preceded by a voiced sound, usually more a matter of aspiration than voicing.)
Edit: I also listened to 30 pronunciations of "mistook" on YouGlish at a very slow speed. In the ones I listened to, I heard "took" (i.e. with an aspirated [tʰ]) in 18 of them, and "dook" (with an unaspirated [t]) in 12 of them. Geoff Lindsey mentions that there's a class of words like this--dystopia is the one he cites--that are sometimes, but not always, seen as having a morpheme boundary, resulting in two possible pronunciations. I say the "dook" version and am quite surprised to learn that I may be in the minority.
One more note: As Weather Vane noted in the comments, you might actually find that, if you try to pronounce "mistook" with a voiced [d] sound (and without a morpheme boundary), it will still sound like you're saying the word "mistook," since English doesn't contrast voiced [d] and unaspirated [t] in that position. It makes the most sense to see either option, a [d] or an unaspirated [t], as a realization of the phoneme /d/.
So the dictionaries' transcriptions are wrong?
The problem is that dictionaries' phonemic transcriptions don't capture this loss of contrast. For example, OxfordLD transcribes "mistook" as /mɪˈstʊk/. This is really just a mistake (misdake?) on the dictionaries' part; it would be more correct to transcribe (transgribe?) it as /mɪˈsdʊk/, or to include both possible pronunciations, to reflect the phonemic reality. (That said, the morpheme-boundary issue does track the fact that dictionaries' phonemic transcriptions differ as to whether the /s/ belongs in the first or the second syllable of that word; one could likely explain all this in terms of syllable rather than morpheme boundaries, but I digress.)
Lindsey's CUBE dictionary has an option ("Analyses > mɪsdɛjk") to fix this issue; if you look up "mistook" with that option selected, it will give you a transcription with a /d/, /mɪsdɵ́k/ in his notation.
Isn't there a little bit of a [t] sound there, even in the "dook" pronunciation?
ItWasLikeThatWhenIGotHere noticed--if I understand that comment correctly--that, if you listen carefully, you can sometimes hear a brief voiceless stop just after the /s/ in mistook even in the unaspirated pronunciations. But you can hear the same devoicing at the start of many pronunciations of words starting with /d/ on their own if you cut them right. So that's no reason to transcribe it as a /t/ phoneme.
Edit: To make this point a bit clearer: listen to this audio. I took the British and American pronunciations of "duck" from OxfordLD, slowed them down ten times, and cut off everything starting from the middle of the vowel. As you can hear, the British pronunciation happens to start with a mostly voiced [d], whereas in the American one that consonant is partially devoiced, becoming more like a [t], as you can also see on the very first part of the spectrogram. (This isn't a difference between dialects, just between different instances of the same word.)
Note that this doesn't mean that "duck" sounds anything like "tuck," since in neither case is the initial sound aspirated. What's important is the lack of phonemic contrast between the voiced and devoiced versions (when neither is preceded by a voiced sound), which is why you'll have trouble hearing the difference between the initial consonants in these pronunciations of duck if you listen to them at a normal speed (which you can do here). (One note: it may help to imagine someone with an Indian accent saying the word "tuck"--note that this would sound a lot like the American pronunciation of "duck" on OxfordLD, but not like the British one; this is because many Indian speakers wouldn't aspirate the /t/ in tuck, unlike speakers of other dialects.)
This, ultimately, is why it doesn't matter that there may be a brief [t] sound even in the "misdook" pronunciation; we transcribe unaspirated [t] as the phoneme /d/ all the time when it doesn't contrast with a voiced [d], e.g. at the beginning of a word, so we should do so after an /s/ also.
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Comments have been moved to chat; please do not continue the discussion here. Before posting a comment below this one, please review the purposes of comments. Comments that do not request clarification or suggest improvements usually belong as an answer, on [meta], or in [chat]. Comments continuing discussion may be removed. – Kit Z. Fox Mar 27 '24 at 16:34