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Why do some people pronounce "cotton" as codden and "satin" as saddin and Russian leader "Putin" as pudin?

These pronunciations are made even by professional news people on national television.

tchrist
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Harrison
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  • Different locales have different accents which can cause this. Where do you hear this? It is not proper as far as I'm concerned. – mfoy_ Jul 08 '15 at 18:10
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    @mfoy_ It is absolutely proper. It appears almost ubiquitously in all speakers of American, Canadian, Australian, and South African English to some degree, and in a great number of British and Irish English as well. Note, however, that these /t/’s are *not pronounced as [d]*. That is, they are pronounced the same way a /d/ in the same position would be pronounced, but that pronunciation is [ɾ] (an alveolar tap), rather than an actual [d] (an alveolar—or, dialectally, dental—stop). Only if [ɾ] comes before a resonant (like [ɾl] or [ɾn]) does it become an actual [d]. – Janus Bahs Jacquet Jul 08 '15 at 18:17
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    Actually in many words, you're right, now that I think about it. Such as "medal" vs "metal". But OP's example are pretty bad because I've never heard "pudin" or "saddin". – mfoy_ Jul 08 '15 at 18:22
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    @mfoy_ [ˈsædn̩] (or [ˈsæʔn̩] with just a glottal stop) is by far the most common pronunciation of satin in my experience; and though Putin, being a foreign name and thus more likely to be over-enunciated, is commonly un-flapped, I’ve heard both [ˈpuːdn̩] and [ˈpuːʔn̩] many times, too. – Janus Bahs Jacquet Jul 08 '15 at 18:26
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    @mfoy_ why do some pronounce a different vowel in "can" and "can't"? In a language with as many speakers as English has, there is bound to be variation. Who is to say what's proper? If enough people agree on something, it becomes proper. – phoog Jul 08 '15 at 18:36
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    OP suffers from the common delusion that English spelling is sposta represent English pronunciation. – John Lawler Jul 08 '15 at 18:36
  • @FumbleFingers Come on FF!!!! Really? You're linking to a question where the leading answer says *if you put the stress on the t*?! – Araucaria - Him Jul 08 '15 at 18:36
  • @phoog Hmmm, but virtually every native speaker mainly uses a different vowel in can from the one they do in can't – Araucaria - Him Jul 08 '15 at 18:41
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    PLEASE DO NOT LINK THIS QUESTION TO ONE WITH NO GOOD ANSWERS. IT DESERVES A GOOD ANSWER!!!! – Araucaria - Him Jul 08 '15 at 18:42
  • @Araucaria: I admit I didn't bother to look at the answers there before closevoting, but so far as I'm concerned if they're not up to snuff the original question should be revisited, not resubmitted. I don't see the words *if you put* anywhere on the linked page though - what I do see in the top--rated answer is A t* in the middle of a word can be pronunced as a soft d in American English (think of bottle, cattle, etc.)* That seems perfectly reasonable to me. (Are you and Joe Blow sharing a bottle somewhere? :) – FumbleFingers Jul 08 '15 at 18:45
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    @Araucaria You haven't spent much time in America, have you? – phoog Jul 08 '15 at 18:47
  • @phoog Not that much. But I think you should look at the careful wording of my comment!!!! Because we don't normally stress can in a positive declarative sentence. Even Americans don't .... – Araucaria - Him Jul 08 '15 at 18:49
  • @Auracaria but we often stress it in many contexts. "Yes, we can." I am often unable to make myself understood to Europeans when saying "can" -- no matter how much I stress the word, I cannot make that absence of /t/ obvious. Anyway, the vowel I am interested in for the purpose of this argument is that in can't. – phoog Jul 08 '15 at 18:54
  • @FumbleFingers Yes, you're right. It's worse than that it says *If the stress is on the t* ... – Araucaria - Him Jul 08 '15 at 18:54
  • @phoog The point is that in unstressed can in both American English and British English, there's usually a schwa. In both Am and Br Eng there's rarely ever a [t] in can't! I know that's anti-intuitive ... but it's true .. – Araucaria - Him Jul 08 '15 at 18:56
  • @Araucaria: So go and post a decent answer to the original. Don't berate me for pointing out it's the same question. – FumbleFingers Jul 08 '15 at 18:57
  • @FumbleFingers Well, mabe leave this one alone for a bit so the chances of a decent answer go up, and then close that one and link it to this. This already has a much better answer that consists basically of a quote ... – Araucaria - Him Jul 08 '15 at 18:58
  • @FumbleFingers No, no bottle with Mr Blow, am still at work, grr, hey ho ... :) – Araucaria - Him Jul 08 '15 at 19:00
  • @Araucaria: I don't disagree with the existing answer here (obviously!), but I've downvoted because it's not in the spirit of how ELU is supposed to work (Jimmy's contribution consists solely of the word *From* and a colon). If a question can be fully answered with just a link (optionally supplemented by cut&pasted text from that link), it should be closed as General Reference (or the current equivalent). Why are you so keen to keep this later copy of the question open? – FumbleFingers Jul 08 '15 at 19:09
  • @FumbleFingers Actually, the "From" and ":" were mine :D – Avon Jul 08 '15 at 19:12
  • It’s not a d, dang it. Related or actual duplicates, and in some cases perhaps better answered, include: http://english.stackexchange.com/a/226221 http://english.stackexchange.com/q/68634 http://english.stackexchange.com/a/237022 http://english.stackexchange.com/a/226203 http://english.stackexchange.com/q/220477 http://english.stackexchange.com/a/255350 http://english.stackexchange.com/q/110741 http://english.stackexchange.com/q/210023 http://english.stackexchange.com/q/142718 http://english.stackexchange.com/q/125852 http://english.stackexchange.com/q/64828 – tchrist Jul 09 '15 at 02:31

2 Answers2

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I pronounce the t's in the words you mention as glottal stop (the last consonant in "Hawai'i"), not as d, and I think my pronunciation is common. I have heard d here, though. A good friend of mine who grew up in California's Central Valley said d in this position. Phonetically, the d is easy to understand (easier to understand than my glottal stop), since it results from a simple assimilation of the voicing of t to the following voiced syllabic consonant.

Greg Lee
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From Do Americans pronounce T like D ? :

It’s often stated that Americans pronounce T like D. This is not quite accurate. In American English, T and D are always pronounced distinctly in words like dip and tip, or attack and adapt, or bleat and bleed. However, there are many words, such as metal and medal, or bleating and bleeding, or bitter and bidder, where T and D are indeed pronounced the same for many speakers of American English. In these words, it is not the case that T is being pronounced as a D. Rather, it is the case that both T and D are being pronounced as a third sound, commonly known as a “tap” or a “flap.” The “tap” that we may hear in a word like bleating is not the same sound as the final consonant in bleat, but it is also not the same as the final consonant in bleed.

We do not find the “tap” sound in all positions in a word in American English. We only find it between vowels. Specifically, we only find it between vowels when the following vowel is not stressed. Stressed syllables are indicated in our dictionaries by one of two marks, either the high stress mark, /ˈ/, for a syllable which has the greatest degree of stress in the word, or the low stress mark, /ˌ/, for a syllable which doesn’t have the greatest degree of stress in the word, but which still receives stress. Any syllable not preceded by one of these two marks is unstressed. Thus, we may hear the “tap” sound in words like metal, bleeding, or bitter, but we would not hear the “tap” in words like attack, since the vowel following the T is in a stressed syllable. It should be noted that R acts like a vowel in American English with regards to tapping, thus words like barter, herding, or aorta will have taps. Also, a “tap” can be found at the ends of words when the following word begins with an unstressed vowel. For example, in the sentence "I will read a book," the D at the end of read will sound like a tap.

Not all speakers of American English pronounce T and D as taps in the situations mentioned. Some will keep T and D distinct in all situations. Tapping of T and D is also not common in British English though it is common in Australian English. Even some speakers who do use taps might not always do it consistently, and might pronounce a word with a tap sometimes, and with a regular T or D other times. A learner of English who wants to keep T and D distinct in all situations will be understood. However, if you want to sound like a native speaker of American English, it is useful to learn when to pronounce T or D as a tap.

(learnersdictionary.com)

Avon
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Jimmy
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  • Please do not ‘answer’ questions with a simple link. Answers are supposed to be self-contained and make sense even if the site you link to is or becomes unavailable. – Janus Bahs Jacquet Jul 08 '15 at 18:18
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    Corollary: do not simply plagiarize, wholesale, the words and works of others. Answers are expected to be primarily the poster's own words; a new, unique writeup specific to the question at hand. – Dan Bron Jul 08 '15 at 18:23
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    @DanBron I don't mind that with a link and an attribution. It's less destructive than making up an answer based on a frivolous opinion ... – Araucaria - Him Jul 08 '15 at 18:34
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    @Araucaria I'll admit the answer is in better shape now than when I first encountered it: Avon has moved the copied text to a blockquote. Before they did that, the text simply followed the link, unadorned, in a way that made it look as if Jimmy were claiming the work for himself. But, even though I think it's better than any of its previous incarnations, I think the simple length of the quoted passage over-reaches "fair use" (and anyway I am told that "posts are supposed to be primarily the author's own words"). – Dan Bron Jul 08 '15 at 18:42
  • @DanBron Pity then, cuz it's one of the best quotes and answers that this question's going to get. No doubt it'll get closed in a sec or two and linked to that really bad post Why is “t” sometimes pronounced like “d” in American English? and then no visitor to this site will ever get a decent answer, but will be mislead into thinking that that other question has "been answered" .... :( – Araucaria - Him Jul 08 '15 at 18:47
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    @Araucaria You could add a better one. I think the one you just deleted could claim some advantages over this one ... ;) – Dan Bron Jul 08 '15 at 18:48
  • @DanBron Well, it's not a wiki quote. On the whole it's kind of accurate. It's a good resource and one that readers should be directed to ... It's not great in terms of originality, but in terms of being useful for readers interested in the phonetics, it's ok. 10 times better than anything on that other post. And I ain't breaking off from my PhD to write no post that no-one's going to read for some closed question ... – Araucaria - Him Jul 08 '15 at 18:51
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    In British English, we don't use a flap, but there is still a modification of some plosives (especially 't' or 'd') in some of the same contexts discussed above. An 'l' or 'n' following the plosive causes the plosive to have lateral or nasal release, respectively. The release isn't changed before an 'r' though (at least not in non-rhotic accents). This doesn't explain why US accents contain the flaps, but it perhaps hints that the mutation is an instance of a wider class of mutations. – Karasinsky Jul 08 '15 at 23:04
  • Related. – tchrist Mar 16 '24 at 16:33